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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2012
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I posted this on another webpage a few days ago and never got the feedback I had hoped for so...I'll try it here.
The topic of conversation in the shop yesterday. There are very different ideas on the subject: one being that modern ammunition (ie. w/shotcups) almost obviates the need for any choke, the other is that factory chokes (especially those with the long parallel-sections past the constriction) are the only effective choke systems. The third path is that any constriction of the shot collumn is sufficient to achieve the desired effect of full(er) patterns at distance, even if the constriction is only at the last few fractions of an inch at the muzzle.
I've had the length shortened on the barrel on an older (and, more practical than valuable) gun to achieve two things: to shorten the overall length and weight of the gun and, more importantly (to me), to change the choke from full to now about light-modified. The gun is presently at 26 1/2-inches and has 10-points of choke, which at 16-gauge should be about right for my needs in the uplands.
Anybody else here ever play this game?
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 268
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 268 |
Not quite that way; but I've had chokes opened up from "Full & full" to Imp Cylinder & Modified, or Skeet & Imp Cylinder(depending on the gun) & never regretted it. I am not sure Michael Murphy was right about "no choke needed," but for me, open chokes work better.
Sam Ogle
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,383 Likes: 1321
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,383 Likes: 1321 |
Sam, that was Michael McIntosh that said that "Choke is obsolete with today's ammunition". I think that may be the statement you are referring to. I disagreed with him, and still do.
I DO think most people are overchoked with full/full, using modern ammo. I, however, lean toward more choke. I compete with .020" and .020" fixed chokes in NSCA tournaments, and with .018" and .018" in my main competition S x S.
I have opened fixed chokes a little bit several times, and only regretted it once.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,222 Likes: 667 |
I believe that it was McIntosh where I read that statement, probably in the same book where he sang the praises of his late father's Model 31. I have found his supposition on both items to be argueably correct. At least in 12-gauge. For sub-gauge guns (20-bores), I do find that a bit-more choke is useful for keeping patterns from becoming splotchly and uneven. What I'm curious about is how that needs to be achieved.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,383 Likes: 1321
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,383 Likes: 1321 |
IME, it is mostly trial and error, Lloyd. The "formulas" for really nice patterns are few and far between. A pattern plate is really a good investment, if one is concerned about getting nice patterns out of one's gun(s). What works in one won't necessarily give the same results out of the next (seemingly) identical gun. Ain't all this fun? SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 471
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 471 |
Lloyd3,
Lloyd, my comments are based on my experience and advice from bird hunters (quail hunters) when I was growing up. I have opened many many old side by sides and closed a few via jug choking. My experience relates to 20 and 28 gauge guns and a few 16 gauges. Based on my experience the smaller the gauge the more important the choking for good hunting results.
I was taught to pattern your gun with the brand of shell and size shot at the distances you plan to shoot because different guns with the supposedly same constriction may pattern differ brand shells or shot size differently.
I like playing the game and believe each gun, especially older ones, have to be adjusted according to observed results.
Take Care, Riprap
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 471
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 471 |
Stan,
I just reread your last comment and I certainly agree with you. I think you just gave the "short and sweet version" and my long winded approach wasn't necessary. I just should have said Amen Stan.
Take Care, Riprap
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,222 Likes: 667
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,222 Likes: 667 |
Thanks folks! I kind of figured that it was truely a "hit or miss" proposition, but trimming that barrel back a bit made me delve into the lore of chokes more deeply than normal. Lots of people have very-closely held convictions on the subject (at least in what they write). I figure that if I've made a complete hash of it, I can always cut another half-inch off and go with choke tubes. The true test will be the patterning board or the dove-opener, whichever comes first.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,983 Likes: 894
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,983 Likes: 894 |
The proof is in the pudding, Lloyd. I've altered chokes on a few and changed the barrel length on a gun that had a Cutts on it. My experiences have been good, and I'd do the same thing to both guns today all over again. I still own them both. My Dad opened his full choke A5 to modified when I was a kid, and shot it just as poorly as he did prior to that operation. I suspect shotgun barrels are often unique unto themselves. There is a lot of hit or miss out there (pardon the pun) on modification to them.
Best, Ted
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,815 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,815 Likes: 4 |
A complicated subject: First we have to classify whether we are talking breaking clays or killing birds. A choke that will break a clay may only wound a bird. I shoot several thousand rounds a year at sporting Clays and a LOT less than that at birds. I use a .012-.015 choke for about all Sporting up to 45 yds and it breaks everything that I think should have broken. I shot the same choke last weekend at a Station which had an edge on 50 yd clay and I am confident my choke was too open. Of course a bird would have been wounded if hit at that distance with that choke. when we are shooting birds at distance over about 25 yds , I do not agree with McIntosh either. I have wounded Quail and Dove with a choke too open when the distance is too far for the constriction. I use IC for Quail and Mod usually for Dove and Duck.
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