doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J.W Tolley hammer gun information ( with pictures)

Just picked up my new J.W Tolley hammer shotgun recently and was wondering if anyone some details on the maker and the gun. The gun itself was apparently made c.1895 (#7816) and has been tastefully restored at some point in the past with a new hinge pin, re-browned 30" damascus barrels and refinished stock. I would say its a fairly high grade gun with fine English scroll and game scene engraving however the stock has a fairly modest grain.
From what I know J.W Tolley was best known for their heavier guns in larger gauges/bores which is why at 6 pounds 6 oz it seems like it may have been made by W.C Scott and retailed by Tolley.
Would be very interested to see if anyone else on the forum has something similar by the same maker plus any information on the gun would be much appreciated!

Cheers,
Rhys.

A very nice find. Good luck.

I would say that the wood is pretty good for a gun of its age and quality .There are no Tolley records in existence other than some basic information pieced together by enthusiasts .

i do know that every year there is an article in The Field or one of the other UK sporting magazines about wildfowling and traditional guns get mentioned -Tolley is always high on the list as specialists in big bore guns.

obviously- that was not all they did well

nice looking gun

Nice gun, Rhys95, but I don't think I would describe it as being "tastefully restored". Barrel finish looks original, and the wood has had some varnish added. Still a fine piece though.
JR

Nice gun. W&C Scott guns from that period often (but not always) have a very long catch to release the forend. If yours has that, it would be more evidence for Scott, which I suspect may well be right.

I'm sure someone with access to the Internetgun club site will weigh in with all the necessary information. True Tolley was mainly associated with wildfowling guns. They were later bought out by Skimmin & Wood and I now think that Wisemans in Birmingham have the name. I have a boxlock non-ejector 12 bore wildfowl gun and a Tolley box lock ejector from their S & W days but made as a lightweight 2" chamber gun. Yours does have the look of a W.C.Scott gun about it.

Just the sort of gun that I try to pick up. They are not making any more! Enjoy using it. Lagopus.....

I was going to state what lagopus added that it does certainly have similar lines and look of a W C Scott hammer gun.

F J Wiseman do indeed own the name . Having known the Wiseman's for many years I have asked Colin Wiseman about this . He has assured me that there are no records or archives of any kind relating to Tolley that he knows of and certainly not in the possession of Wiseman's

I have an eight bore Tolley hammergun and have never been able to find out much about this maker either.

Best Regards, George

Thanks every one for your replies and Insights. One of the other things I forgot to mention Is that the stock has an unusually large drop which you can see In the last photo. The stock drops 3.5", a full Inch more than my Alex Henry hammer gun and has a much more pronounced decline in the comb. I have noticed this on a few other Tolley's especially those with the horn pistol grip cap and was wondering If there may have been a reason behind it?

Regards,
Rhys

It looks near identical to my Scott Hammergun. I would vote for it being made by Scott.

I have a Tolly that Joe and I think was made by Westley Richards B'ham proof and Westley top lever. I also have a W.C Scott that looks like a cousin to your Tolly.
Monty

George, is your Tolley 8 bore anything like this one? http://www.gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0016&LotRef=179 Look what it went for! Lagopus.....

wow -thanks for the link Lagopus

great gun, but really-if you wanted one- a good quality 8 bore - hammers and even nitro proofs

how many do you have to pick from

Scott similar [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] J & W Tolley box lock [img:center][/img]

I'm assuming the box lock was made by Westley Richards choked full and full. I think both .032 smokes targets when I hit em.

Mine could be it's twin but mine has 36" barrels. It also has percussion fences, rebounding back locks & high eared hammers.

Best Regards, George

8 bores in Britain started to gain value fast when the law was changed. If they were made prior to 1939 and owned but not intended to be used they are classified as antiques and do not have to be registered or held on license. Effectively a kid of five can go into a gun shop and buy one and just walk out with it without breaking the law. Have to be one rich kid though! As they can be traded with little restriction the value increased. I have one by Lang but I do use it so have to register it.

George you are one lucky owner. Lagopus.....

As I understand it Tolley were at one time synonymous with shotguns in the same way as Hoover was with vacuums. "Fetch me the Tolley" being a refain heard in many a farm house when a fox got in to the chickens, apparently.

From IGC:

J & W Tolley
Other Names J & W Tolley Ltd
Address1 22 St Mary's Row 12 & 14 Vesey Street
Address2 19 Loveday Street (Pioneer Works)
Address3 Pioneer Works, 18 Loveday Street
Address4 10 Vesey Street
Address5 10, 12 & 14 Vesey Street
Address6 10 Vesey Street
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun, rifle & pistol makers
Other Address London addresses: 1 Conduit Street, Regent Street; 59 New Bond Street; 5 Regent Place, Regent Street.
Dates 1858-1950
Notes
James William Tolley was born in 1832, possibly in Birmingham but he gave his place of birth in the 1871 census as Wednesbury, Staffordshire. William Tolley was his younger brother, he was born in 1834 and always gave his place of birth as Birmingham.
No entries for either of the brothers has been found in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. In 1858 they established a gun making partnership at 22 St Mary's Row, Birmingham. Undoubtedly, they both served apprenticeships with large gun makers, and then, aged 26 and 24, they started in business by making large quantities of cheap guns, mainly for the African market, but were soon producing higher quality guns.

The 1861 census records James Tolley as a 29 year old gun maker living at 22 St Mary's Row with his wife, Sarah Ann (b.1829 in Birmingham) and and their children, Arthur James (b.1857) and William Henry (b.1860). An 1862 advertisement stated "Gun rifle and pistol manufacturers, Contractor for Military Arms, Breech Loading Guns, Pistols, also all guns suitable for the African markets". In 1866 they entered a gun in the Field Gun Trials but came 32 out of 32. The 1871 census records James and Sarah living at 47 Hywick Lane, Bordesley, with Arthur James who was described as an office boy, and three more sons, Henry J (b.1862), Edgar L (b.1863) and James R (b.1865). James described himself as a master gun maker. William was also recorded in the 1871 census. He was living in Tower Road with his wife, Mary Ann (nee Hughes b.1841 in Birmingham) and their children, Clara Isabelle (b.1861), Kate Evelyn (b.1864), Mary Ann I (b.1866), Minnie M (b.1868), William H (b.1869) and Nelly L (b.1870).

In the early 1870s the firm moved to 19 Loveday Street. From the late 1870s the building was named Pioneer Works. By this time the partnership was a considerable success. In 1871 James Tolley became a shareholder in Braendlin Armoury Co Ltd (see Braendlin Armoury Co Ltd). By 1879 the firm started to acquire a reputation for large bore guns and rifles. James' son Henry had, on 3 February 1877 when he was only 15 years old, filed a patent (No. 461) for a drop-down barrel cocking action with a top rib extension and hook. This was his "Giant Grip" which had a hook on the top lever which fitted into a slot in the top rib extension. This was often used by J & W Tolley (see Henry Tolley of the Times Works, 65-66 Weaman Street). On 6 December 1879 provisional patent No. 5002 was filed for a barrel locking bolt and hammer cocking action and grip safety on an under-lever hammerless gun. The description of the invention was unclear, it was not registered or used to any great extent. Tolley "Perfection" models may have used the patent.

No record has been found of James or Henry Tolley in the 1881 census, they may have been in London or out of the country, but William was recorded living at 127 Albert Road, Aston Manor, he described himself as a gun manufacturer. Mary Ann was living with him as were Kate, Mary Ann, Minnie, William and Nelly L, but two more children were recorded, Ernest (b.1873), Percy J (b.1876) and possibly a third named Hilda (no birth date). Clara was not recorded in this or later censuses. In about 1883, or perhaps 1881, the firm opened a shop in London at 1 Conduit Street. George Bayliss (of the large Birmingham family) was the manager from 1883 to 1903 (when he established his own firm). At this time the firm introduced their "Altro" 12 bore side-lock or box-lock gun, about which the firm said "This new weapon is equally suitable for ordinary game, as well as for duck or for pigeon shooting. This gun will be most useful for sportsmen who do not wish to keep more than one gun for all purposes." It weighed 7 1/2 lbs and was chambered for a 3 inch cartridge. The same gun without recessed choked barrels for shooting ball ammunition was similar to the Fosbery / Holland "Paradox" and was named the "Ubique" or, when sold by other retailers such as Army & Navy, the "Jungle Gun". This had multi-grooved very shallow straight rifling which was twisted and slightly deeper at the muzzle. Neither gun proved very popular, but a version of the Altro was produced with slight choke in the right barrel which could be used with spherical ball ammunition for which a mould was provided (probably about 16 bore for a 12 bore gun).

In 1891 James, Sarah and Henry were recorded living at 25 Leigham Court Road, Streatham, London. James described himself as a gun manufacturer and Henry as a gun maker's assistant. William and Mary A were recorded living at Hazelclose, Warwick Road, Solihull. William described himself as a gun manufacturer and his daughter Minnie (or Clemmie) M, and son William H as gun maker's clerks. Ernest was described as a bicycle apprentice. In 1894 the London shop moved to 59 New Bond Street. By this time the firm's reputation as makers of wildfowling guns was well established, and the firm were appointed gun makers to the King of Portugal. At about this time they were also appointed gun makers to the Persian Royal family. It was probably at this time they opened a shop in New York. In 1901 they became a limited liability company. The 1901 census James as a 69 year old widower living with a nurse / housekeeper. He was managing director of the company. Henry was married Annie M and they lived with a son, Herbert G H, at 48 Fulham Park Gardens, London. William and Mary Ann were living in Church Road, Solihull with some of their children and grandchildren.

Between 1904 and 1909 no London shop was recorded, but it certainly existed and the company was recorded from 1909 to 1915 at 5 Regent Place, Regent Street. James Tolley died in 1916, and the company was bought by Holloway & Naughton. In 1919 they were recorded at 10 Vesey Street, Holloway & Naughton occupied 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street at that time. From 1924 to 1927 the firm's address was 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street but in 1928, and again from 1947 to 1955, it was 10 Vesey Street. In 1929 Holloway & Naughton (and J & W Tolley) were taken over by Skimmin & Wood who moved into their premises at 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street (from 1932 to 1939 10 Vesey Street was occupied by R B Rodda & Co). In 1955 guns ceased to be produced under the J & W Tolley name. In 1964 the firm of Skimmin & Wood was bought by F J Wiseman & Co Ltd of Cannock, Staffordshire. See Tolley (Henry) who was probably the son of J or W Tolley.
Other Info
J & W Tolley became a major manufacturer (and one of the largest trade manufacturers) of sporting guns and rifles. In order to understand the type, quality, model, and style of guns made in the nineteenth century, one has to realise that this was a period of invention and perfection far surpassing anything seen either before or during the next 100 years. Shooting men were more knowledgeable about their guns and the "latest principles" on which they were made than they are today, and both the medium sized gunmaker and the major manufacturer could be much more flexible in terms of what they produced. Whether ordering a gun or buying it off-the-shelf, the customer usually had his own ideas about what he wanted but, in the main, he was advised by his gunmaker. Thus, the specification would list every required detail including any patent numbers for bolting mechanism, safety, triggers and ejectors etc. Although the retailer or "gunmaker" would advise the customer, his advice would depend on what he could produce himself or, more likely, by what was available at the time from the actual manufacturer of the parts or the complete gun. Manufacturers often supplied retailers with complete guns which bore the manufacturer's name and serial number on the barrels and action, but a "trade" manufacturer would usually put the retailer's name and serial number on the barrels and the action. The trade manufacturer's initials or trade mark might be put somewhere inside the action, under the barrels or on the fore-end.

If a "gunmaker" had a workshop or factory, it was not necessarily an indication that he actually "made" his guns himself. Most of the medium sized firms bought guns "in the white" and stocked, engraved and fitted the "furniture" themselves. Alternatively, the so-called factory might have just "finished" guns or it could simply have been a buying, storage and transhipment office. In any event, to the customer, the retailer or "gunmaker" usually appeared to be the actual maker of every part of the gun.

Tim

While J & W Tolley is known for heavier guns, they made some others as well. Mine is a 5 pound, 29" single barrel 12 gauge. One of may favorites. All original finishes.

Thanks Tim Lots of info.
Monty

Jeweler, I also have a J&W Tolley with the same dolls head lock as the pictured gun. It is sufficiently different in minor details from the Westley Richards dolls heads that I've seen that it may have been made by another firm. Mine has an Anson and Deeley patent use number stamped on the action flats but no indication as to the maker of the action.

I would agree with Mr Roberts; Those barrels have never been rebrowned, that's the original finish. The last photo of the gun where we see the most of the stock does look like it's shine is from varnish, but in other pics the wood doesn't seem quite so. I'm hoping it's a trick of the light.

At any rate, it's a great gun and I'd love to have it as well.