doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Does Bismuth shatter?

The TM bulk in UK is very expensive. Kent will not sell in North America.

I've seen odd things, too, with bismuth. I prefer Kent TM.

I certainly have experienced it shattering in a bird and hate the eggshell feel of eating it. I've had bad experiences with "early" Bismuth (bloopers and apparent shattering). I'll use what I have but it's left a bad taste in my mouth.
I love Tungsten Matrix.

Can you shoot tungsten matrix shot in an old gun - a BP proof damascus gun in good condition (using blackpowder loads of course)?

I thought TM was too hard to use in old double and would cause problems with forcing cones, chokes and rib joints. But I'm perhaps way out of date. Does it require a special shotcup?

Brent

The literature I've read said that Kent's TM can be used safely in all steel barrels whether their rated for steel shot or not. They said nothing however about a Damascus barrel, which is my interpretation that; NO you cannot use it safely!!
All the best

FWIW The Bismuth Cartridge Co. clearly states on their website that Bismuth is NOT to be used in damascus barrels.

Rob

BrentD,
I believe that it would be safe to use TM in Damascus providing you used low pressures suitable for the proof marks and I would advise you to use a very good wad with a shot cup, to avoid abrading the bores with Tungsten.

I think the thing here is not from actual shot damage, "NO ONE" is going to stick their head on the chopping block & say their loads (or even shot) are good in "Damascus". There is a distinct difference in Tungsten/Matrix & Tungsten/Iron. My understanding is that T/M is OK in lead rated bbls, but T/I should only be used in Steel rated bbls.
The catch here is that as King pointed out T/M is not available in North America as a reloading component. The question then is; Are the shells themselves loaded to a pressure level suitable for older guns, whether steel or damascus.

I don't know of a cartridge manufacturer that states the product is approved for damascus barrels. Litigation and all that good legal stuff pretty well says lets dodge any culpability we can. I am satisfied that damascus barrels in good condition can handle lp bismuth and tm as well as lead. I shoot all 3. Bismuth is available in bulk here TM is not. It was made available in the UK for the punters with specific restrictions on the resale. Still I would love to get a good supply of Kent TM for reloading purposes. Early bismuth was more brittle than recent production. I have some of each and can tell you that even with a simple plier squeeze test the earlier bismuth is prone to shatter while the newer product deforms. As to Tungsten Matrix - this is still a proprietary process much different than the Tungsten Iron offered by Federal which product is very very hard with high SG. I never did acquire any Federal Tungsten Polymer and don't even know if they offer it any longer. TM ammunition as loaded by Kent is as good or better than the Super X Double X lead from Winchester that we shot years ago and in my experience for waterfowling the Super X Double X was the best available to us at that time. That is really saying something about product performance. Both Bismuth and TM are getting a cost hence price boost this year. I have heard that it will be 20% plus. Given my druthers of all the non tox available for older guns including damascus I would choose TM shot but factory loaded ammo pressures are substantial unloading ammo to extract shot is an expensive proposition. I do admit to occassionaly shooting 3" Kent TM loads in my damascus barreled Smith which has 1 1/2 oz Nitro Proofing and to great effect on the geese and no yet perceived damage to the gun but as a steady diet it would be too much like eating steak and rich dessert at every meal So that leaves the damascus shooting reloader pretty well committed to bismuth whether purchased or home made.

Recoil, if you are talking about loaded cartridges, my guess is that it is the powder, not the shot that is the issue.

I have read in many magazines by noted "experts" (what the heck makes anyone an expert in gunning?) that bismuth is fine in any gun rated for lead provided all the rest is okay for that gun.

If TM is not available for reloading then it will not do me any good, but I will keep an eye out for it. Bismuth has been fine for me except for price and availability. It would be nice to have an alternative.

Thanks for all the comments,
Brent

I know Brent it sure would be good to have that alternative especially considering the good performance you get from TM.
All the best