doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How does one value a 28-gauge M12?

If it dates to 1912- has a 25" barrel, 2&1/2" chambers and a schmidt-load of stampings on the barrel (ejection port side when assembled to the receiver with all the pending patents, and is roll stamped Model 1912 and Not the post-1919 change to Model 12- then you indeed have a first year Model 12 in 20 gauge-Buy surely you already knew this-

You have confirmed it is not a fake. They are rare by any measurement. How many 78 year old, 28 gauge guns do you think exist. The 28 was not that popular at that time. Call it a elite gauge or a snob gauge. Skeet was a very minor game in those days and most shooters just used a 3" .410 gun in the 28 ga event. So there were not that many made in the first place which is why so many 16 and 20 guns are "converted" to pretend to being a factory 28.

I have a factory 28, much later production, that I would not take the BB for. Rule number one for me when considering value of a gun either selling or buying is how likely am I to ever replace it. So if you like it and can afford it buy it because you might never find another legit one like it.

The number 28 stamped on various parts - including mag button and cutoff - is important. But what you really want to know is whether you have a 28 ga receiver in your hands, and not a 16/20 that was built into a 28 ga gun using 28 stamped parts.

It's really pretty simple: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=391354

I consider the cutoff raceway/shellplate stop more reliable than the 28 stamped on the back of the frame. What does it take to remove about .020" (to preclude ghosting) of metal from a nice flat surface, then restamp a 28? Welding/recutting an internal raceway and welding up and reconfiguring the shellplate stop seems like a whole 'nuther level of difficulty.

You folks are wonderful! Thank you all for sharing your expertise. I went from being very pleased to get to look this gun over closely, to now having lots of questions. Armed with even more facts, I'll get look it over again (later this week). I will share my findings with the current owner and we'll see what happens. Mr. Hoggson, that link you provided should be very helpful. I was going to pull the stock (with permission, of course) but if it doesn't have the 28 on the shell cut-off, I think I'd be very suspicious of the gun.

Ted: If I'm crossing the 'border" corridor into the Angle, I won't likely be dragging a 28-gauge M12 along. I've got a circa 1920 16 that loves the same 2 1/2-inch RSTs that my Brummy 16 shoots. Better medicine for ruffies all around.

Maybe so, never under-estimate the criminal mind- the surface where the original gauge of the receiver was handstamped at the top inside of the rear receiver boss was usually a tad rough- as it was invisible in the assembled gun- and very small area to get a, let us say, Dremel or Do-All grinder with the right stone to do this "trick" you mention. And there were then be a slightly lower surface from this grinding, detectable by indexing a depth gage micrometer from the outer radius and checking the depth all the way around the radius of the inner boss of the receiver rear. Also, all the WRA gauge stamps were made as sets- that is to say- a 12 gauge was a single stamp with a double head- 12, ditto for the 16, 20 and 28- and the tool room was charged with maintaining them as to type face sharpness- so one blow from the assembler's machinists hammer was sufficient to "double stamp" (if I may coin a phrase here) the specific gauge. I am 99% sure I could spot this "counterfeiting" in this area in a New York minute- Oh, a segue perhaps, but FWIW here- I own 2 Model 12 Heavy Duck 3" magnum models- one mfg. in 1939, the other in 1948- I have removed the factory buttstocks on both in the many years I have owned them- they are stamped in identical fashion to my standard 12 gauge Model 12's--

So...let me see if I'm following here (from reading the Shotgun World thread on the subject). The reason there are so many fakes is the barrels Winchester supplied to Simmons (as a preferred vendor for rib-equipped guns). Those barrels came onto the market when Simmons closed out that partnership. People who shot skeet then used those barrels to build 28 gauge guns from 20s and 16s so they could participate in skeet competitions with an affordable weapon? No wonder there are so many "fake" guns. Anybody with a "postal order" barrel and a modicum of skill can build his or her own.

About right, Lloyd. There are more built-ups than originals.

I don't think you understood the raceway. We are not referring to the shiny 28-stamped cutoff. We are talking about the milled raceway in which it lives. On 20s and 12s the raceway runs parallel to the bottom of the receiver. On 28 ga receivers it is angled in an upward (back to front) direction. This is quite easily seen on the second pair of M-12s placed together in that thread. Here's another thread w/pics of a 28 and a 20: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=229159&p=1916241#p1916241

You can also see the shellplate stop is beefier than on the 20.

Winchester did not stamp the receivers "28" for no reason. They weren't thinking of collectors. It was b/c the frames are milled different than 20s and 16s. Understanding these differences is the most bankable way to recognize an original. Because.......well.......parts is parts.

And, to repeat, there is nothing wrong with conversions per se. In fact, they are somewhat more reliable feeding than originals. They're just not worth $10-$14k.

RWTF, Yes, but a pro will do the entire surface, even chase out the inletting recesses. Imagine most would be done in a way that a suspicious mind....with calipers....could detect. But if the suspicion is not there (b/c the receiver raceway and shell stop are wrong) the hopeful buyer may just see the 28 and not the background.

I wish you were right about the 99%, but the questions that arise on SGW tell me it is nowhere close to that figure. Sometimes we want something to be true so bad......

Samuel- I am a fairly skilled TIG welder with a solid machine shop background- welding the raceway, and you are 100% right about that variance in the innards of the M12 28 gauge, would require an annealing, skillful welding and finish, re-heat treating and re-blueing to avoid the heat blister transferred from the nom. .0375" thick 4140 AISI nickel chrome molly steel used for receivers on the Model 212 (all gauges) post 1932-- But that hill to climb won't change anything for the true criminal mind- A segue, if I may, but one reason I shoot a Parker 12 Trojan- you can't counterfeit that field grade "Old Reliable" into a BHE-- can't be done--

Barrels are one thing, but what about those swaged and crimped-down magazine tubes. How were those obtained or faked?