doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Adding a fixed choke to an English gun

A number of years ago I asked Briley's to do the same thing for me on a VERY nice pre war Merkel 16 gauge S x S that also had no choke at all in the left barrel. I called and talked to them, specified particularly that I wanted a permanent and INVISIBLE tube installed to give me some choke in the second barrel for pheasant hunting, right barrel already was bored IC, so it was o.k. I particularly emphasized that I wanted an invisible completed job, not simply a choke tube screwed in. It came back to me with an off-the-shelf choke tube installed that I could unscrew easily, and had a recess cut at the beginning of the choke that was very visible. I had to send it back twice before they finally did the job I wanted. They kept the gun tied up for about 9 months total, and when it came back there was a large deep scratch on the outside of the left barrel apparently from some holding jig. To be sure, they finally got the job right except for the large scratch, which required a new rust blue job after I got it back at my expense. They ended up refunding the money I paid for the tube installation, but I had to pay for the reblue, so overall I got value for what I paid for, I suppose, but I won't go back to Briley's again. I have had good luck with Seminole in Florida in the past, but haven't used them lately.

I'm with ken61 and agree that modern shells with 1-piece plastic wads would tighten up the patterns. Also, reload using different shot hardness and different wads could make tighter patterns. I've been successful with reloads in both directions, as in tighter patterns and more open patterns, depending on shot and wads.

Chris,
I have investigated having this done by Teague a couple of times with English guns that needed some more choke.
Both times they said the barrel walls were too thin in the muzzle area to be safe to do.
I suspect that this is the norm rather than the exception unless we are taking about a recently rebarrelled or sleeved gun.
As others have said, I think you are going to have to jug choke (providing there is enough wall thickness), play with cartridges or buy another of my sleeved guns!
Having said that, if one had got the wall thickness to do it, I would fit a set of Teague thin-wall interchangeable chokes: very inconspicuous and ultimate adaptability.
Best,
Toby

I agree very much that cyl/skeet to full gives one a few more yards, 10 or a few more. I think IC is the best all around choke in modern times. IC with modern shells reaches pretty far.

Great discussion and thanks to all.

Off I will head to the pattern board once this Scottish boxlock lands on these foreign shores!

Improved cylinder is another of those terms that has different definitions depending which side of the Atlantic you're on. What the Brits call IC, we call skeet. Basically around .005 in a 12ga. What we call IC, they call quarter choke. The French seem to agree with the Brits--which certainly isn't always the case. I recently bought a 12ga Vouzelaud which their description lists as "lisse ameliore" (IC) in the R barrel, "1/4 choke" in the L. Measures 005/011.

I like skeet (or Brit IC) in the R barrel for most of the upland hunting I do. (Even more open doesn't hurt for ruffed grouse and woodcock.) Some think it on the light side for pheasants, but I've found it quite effective, pushing a 1 1/16 oz load of Brit 6's. Light mod makes a good L barrel choice I think, hunting over good dogs. But American IC splits the difference between the two quite nicely, and can be effective out to 40 yards with the right load.

Hi, Chris. My two centavos worth.

Muzzle pressures are pretty low - say 400-500 psi - so it doesn't take a lot of wall thickness to contain them. I'd be more worried about thin muzzle walls being subject to denting. There should be no line if you say so to the craftsman. Your call on choke constrictions as you know how you hunt and shoot.

If you decide to pattern, please, oh please, use Dr. Jones's "Insight" pattern analysis program. In so doing you will actually know for sure that you understand your patterns. I can testify in person that manual analysis of patterns is a lengthy, time consuming process but it must be done to actually "Know" whatchagot. There is some "pain" (read learning curve) involved in Insight, but it really is the key to using pattern analysis to "know." Patterns are way too complex and variable to do anything but statistical analysis.

A fixed choke tube should change the gun's MOI very little. Tape an ounce weight to the muzzle and see if you can tell any significant difference. If not, don't worry. If so, let me know and we can run a projected new handling number set based on the gun as it sits.

Good luck with it.

DDA

Best of luck with it, Dr. P.

I find myself in the position of disagreeing with two posters here with whom I have a lot of respect, and rarely disagree. But, in this instance I do. Actually, in retrospect, I seem to find myself "defending" the usefulness of tighter than average chokes a bit more often than that, probably because of my life's experiences with them allowing me to see what they are capable of.

Joe Wood and buzz are both posters for whom I have respect. However, the premise .............. " Cylinder can provide killing patterns out to 25 or 30 yards, great for flushing birds. The full choke will reach on out another 10 yards or so.", is one that I have strong disagreement with. Not the first part, but the last.

We all are products of our experiences, and form our opinions based upon them. I guess I am making an assumption here that Joe and buzz are primarily close range users of shotguns for hunting, and I could be in total error about that. I know Joe is an avid quail hunter, and I envy his opportunities to do so. Not sure about buzz, maybe mostly grouse? Again, not sure, so the above assumption may be wrong on both parts. If so, I apologize for my error in that assumption.

But, guys, let's examine for a minute the idea that full choke only adds another 10 yards or so to the killing range of a shotgun.

1) There are so many documented cases today of expert shooters killing consistently at 50 yards MORE than that range, that it cannot be denied. There are numerous videos on youtube of Digweed killing pigeons and crows at 90 to 110 yards. Not occasionally, but regularly. Before you think, "Yeah, but that's Digweed, not the average hunter", stop a moment. We are not discussing the shooting abilities of a man, but the killing ability of a shotgun, and the difference between cylinder and full choke. If only one man on earth can do it, then the full choke is capable of it. Digweed does not change the capabilities of the gun itself, only utilizes it to it's fullest potential. I kill doves dead, not crippled, with an IM choke and 1 oz. of 7 1/2s at 60 to 70 yards consistently, in the late season. I believe that is nearing the reliable killing limit of 7 1/2 shot on a dove with IM, so I don't push it any further.

2) If full choke only added 10 yards (or so) to cylinder, what would be the sense in ever having anything in between, such as the very useful improved cylinder? What would it add, only 3-4 yards, or the wonderful modified, 7-8 yards?

3) In defense of our tendency to see things based upon our paradigms, I offer this anecdote. I know a former GA State skeet champion, many times over, ladies' division. She came out to our local sporting clays range about 10 years ago to see what it was like. She, with her husband who is also an accomplished skeet shooter, shot a round of 100. If I recall correctly, her score was in the low 30s, his even less. They left with their feelings hurt. He was more angry, stating flatly that many presentations on that course were beyond the capabilities of a shotgun. My buddy had just shot the course in the upper 90s, with a Mossberg. Our experience shapes our opinions. They thought that anything over 35-40 yards was out of range of a shotgun, whereas I know that even a modified choke is eminently useful at that distance.

Again, please don't take my stance as being argumentative. I'm just taking a different position based upon what I know to be true in my experiences. Again, not shooter ability, but capability of the tool itself.

With respect, SRH

I suspect Joe's and buzz's experience is similar to mine, grouse close and ducks and geese nearly always from a blind. All my 12s are IC/M. I hate like poison crippling, and ease my conscience with a good dog. I'm a good judge of distance and passed on enough iffy shots to buy a Beretta 686 last year with---I never thought I'd do this---a handful of chokes. I agree with Stan's observations.

Stan; What I think I meant to say is I have very little use for a full choke anymore except for trap shooting and occasional dove hunting. I hunt Grouse and Quail as you surmised. No need for much choke there. When I shoot sporting, I usually put the IC chokes in and shoot #7 1/2 shot, rarely changing them. I've found IC is good for a 40 yard shot. That's a pretty long shot in my opinion. Full Definately gives more distance, just how much I don't know.....maybe a consistent pattern to 55 yds? Also Stan, distance is not the only consideration for tight chokes. My live bird gun is set up .030 and .040". We start at the 32 yd line. I would call this gun full and fuller. Distance isn't the reason this gun is choked this way, the reason being if I hit the bird I want it to DIE. Pattern density my friend, not distance.