I suspect Joe's and buzz's experience is similar to mine, grouse close and ducks and geese nearly always from a blind. All my 12s are IC/M. I hate like poison crippling, and ease my conscience with a good dog. I'm a good judge of distance and passed on enough iffy shots to buy a Beretta 686 last year with---I never thought I'd do this---a handful of chokes. I agree with Stan's observations.