doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How does one value a 28-gauge M12?

Ted: My waterfowl guns are all in the 14 1/2 LOP range (or less) because of the heavier clothing
I'm generally swaddled in. There's currently talk on this webpage about a minimalist's battery of guns. Your AYA is one of those guns than can fairly easily "do it all". Hard to not appreciate a gun like that.

Back to the reason for my original post: I finally got to examine that circa 1937 Model 12 again this morning. The cutoff/raceway has a noticeable step in it and the cutoff arm is definitely stamped "28". The cutoff arm is also noticeably more substantial than what I remember seeing on 20-gauge guns. The extractor and ejector also look more substantial to me, and the bolt face seems appropriate for what you'd expect for a 28. I couldn't help myself and pulled the stock. The "28" is clearly stamped on the boss below the bolt flange. The receiver looks to be the real deal to me. The one questionable part is the barrel bracket, which is clearly marked "20". Anybody have any ideas on how this could have happened?

Some other things I've noticed about this gun: The bolt face is tapered down to the 28-gauge dimension over most of the top-half of the bolt, and the shell-lifter has pronounced "lip" on the ejection port side of the cradle. Neither modification looks to be easy to do or poorly done. Combine that with the clearly factory modified magazine tube and I'd have to say that I'm overcoming my earlier doubts about this gun. I now believe that this is indeed, an authentic "first year" 28-gauge Model 12. Fairly plain, and with some warts, but not a fake.

Lloyd,
Uggy. Short for Ugartechea. Different manufacturer than AYA. Not sure how much difference there is in the two, never owned a boxlock by AYA.

Can't help you on the Winchester. Way too rich for my blood, anyway.

Best,
Ted

God! Yet another brain-fart. Ugartechea. I'm sorry, getting older isn't for sissies. All the Spanish makers can make a wide range of guns, ranging from utilitarian to "best". I've seen some pretty nice "Uggies" and some pretty poor AYAs over the years. Not an excuse for confusing them, but I do tend to lump them together just a bit.

Yea, the idea of a multi-thousand dollar Model 12 does seem a bit farfetched. Even though this gun might be pretty rare, I frankly like my nickel steel 16 better. I'm just not a collector and the handling and weight of this 28 doesn't even come close to my short-chambered workhorse. I weighed the 28 today at 6 3/4 lbs. My 16 is almost 6 even. Not sure why the 28 is so heavy.

FWIW, the local expert on M12 28s told me that all of these guns had a 20 gauge barrel band (& he's personally owned quite a few). He also confirmed that you can't really fake the swaged and crimped magazine tube.

He is right- they are the same size- later on in production, a "running change" perhaps, they were stamped 28, but he is correct as to the same dimensions- Sounds like you have taken all the right steps here Lloyd--great indeed that a double gun forum could contain as many experts and collectors of the great M12- not named the Perfect Repeater for naught. I am going to a small area gun show the last week-end of this month, and the word has it that a nice collection of mainly pre-WW2 Model 12's will be offered for sale- we shall see- can always fine room for a few more in the 32 gun Browning safe-

Although sadly to be sure not offered in 28ga I think Savage Model 28 would be much safer bet at fraction of Model 12s cost. Not many were made before Winchester sued Savage and production stopped.

I would hate to hear of another "trail of tears" after someone thought they just bought another factory assembled 28ga Model 12.

I'm not familiar with the Model 28. I'll have to look that one up.

It looks like the Model 28 evolved from the Model 21, which was reportedly manufactured from 1920 to 1928. Model 28 production seems to have run from 1927 to 1938. They do look very much like Winchesters until you get a closer look. The tang safety and that metal arm sticking up from the pump mechanism are pretty good clues that it isn't a Model 12. If Winchester had ever written a letter demanding that Savage cease production, it doesn't look like they paid much attention to it as production spanned something like 18-years. They appear to all be 12 gauge as there is no mention of sub-gauge guns. Considering the number of years of production, I've never knowingly seen examples of either model.

Assume there is a typo in the first sentence. Should read "Model 12"?