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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 254
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 254 |
I use distilled water from the drugstore--it's only like $3/ gallon, and my smaller bluing tank only uses 3-4 gallons. No big deal, if we're talking about a few hundred bucks for the bluing job. If you see oil drops coming to the surface of the boiling tank, a half piece of paper towel laid onto the water surface, and quickly picked up, BEFORE you pull the barrels out will ensure the oil will not contaminate the steel, and make a camo job out of it.
hippie redneck geezer
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,217 Likes: 1201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,217 Likes: 1201 |
Keith,
I haven't used steam, but I did once use boiling water from a tea kettle poured over and down the barrel of a rifle, after using Laurel Mtn browning solution on it. Nice matte blue.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292 |
From the photographs posted by PA24(Doug in Utah) in the past and now, it is my opinion that he has learned that polishing is the key to the success of blacking barrel to get the results that the great barrel blackers of the UK get and have gotten through the years. I do not know what blacking solution that he uses but it is beautiful and works very good and his boiler set up is excellent as well.
It is good to have a topic of learning and advice giving on this BBS as that is the way it was in the days of it's origin. The excellent barrel blackers are not keen on giving out their formulas or techniques. But he passed the secrets and mysteries of the trade to his sons. Barrel blackers are the same.
From my observations in the UK and USA, no single blacking or browning formula works the same way throughout the regions of these countries due likely to atmospheric, ambient temperatures, shop conditions and so forth--thereforth you do not find a single formula being used by all the trade. However, one issue paramount and singular consistent of the techniques of the very BEST blackers is: POLISHING; and polishing means hours of hand work with emery cloth using grits well beyond 320--or at least "worn out" emery cloth strips.
I believe that it is the degree and amount of hand polishing that both Doug of Utah and I use to arrive at barrel gloss that is almost identical--with likely very different ambient conditions and blacking formula.
I have seen plenty of gloss barrel blacking done in the UK for the trade and it looks great until you place in in the light of day and see all the work that needs to be done by proper polishing that is showing under the blacking grinning back at you as Jack Rowe is fond of saying. Tradesmen cannot spend the polishing time it takes to make a barrel perfect, if they are being paid for a quick ordinary job.
I have seen little (almost none) high gloss work in the USA, until Doug showed us his work. Is it possible that barrel blackers here do not know what they do not know?
Kindest Regards;
Bv
Bushveld and Keith, Thank you for your kind words and compliments, appreciated. As Bushveld mentioned the key is in the hand polish work and most folks don't realize the hours and hours of hand work required to refinish a set of barrels the proper way. If you hold your polished set of barrels in bright sunlight and see NO FLAWS, SHADOWS, GHOSTS whatsoever and the polishing is all unidirectional and as near perfect as you can make it, then you are ready to start rust blueing/blacking. You can adjust your polished finish in the white to be like chrome for high gloss or dull for a duller finish, as required or desired. Everybody uses different methods, but the end result must be as noted above. The polishing is key, just like painting a car, if it's ugly before you apply the paint, it is going to be ugly after the paint dries. In my opinion the water purity is not as important as the polishing factor, most impurities boil off as you fire up your tanks anyway. The boiling water will soon become contaminated with rust blueing/blacking compounds as the number of passes increase. If you have the availability to collect rain water, it is about as good as it gets for boiling and is an easy souce of good water for this application. If done properly, a good rust blue job will last for years and maintain it's luster with just a little care. I rust blue quite a few rifles as well with good results and I've included some pictures below to show that the level of polish can differ depending on the desired end result and how the different steel alloys will accept the rust blueing/blacking differently which gives you some really nice SUBTLE color contrasts. Hand polishing and detailing is the key, no power tools or buffers/wheels of any sort at any time...all hand work only in my opinion if you want nice results. Best Regards to All,    
Doug
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,753 Likes: 505
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,753 Likes: 505 |
Doug, I must say that your results speak for the quality of detail that you have reached. Prep work is just about the least glorious thing done in any job but often the most important part of the job. I also place a high value on working neatly and paying attention to the detail as you go. I understand the temptation to cut corners or skip steps if not "needed" to produce work at a price point or crank out work in high volume but quality like you produce can not be short changed.
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 271
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 271 |
Some of the reading I have done has stated that a lower gloss finish is desired in some of the vintage American makes. That was the reason I gleaned for only polishing to 320 grit. Now I'm trying to figure out how to create a surface with no visible imperfections at such a low sanding factor. Do you polish the barrels higher up in shine and then dull them back down with something? Does the etchant help with this on damascus barrels? There's a lot to learn. I know I can polish a piece of metal to a mirror finish, but I'm not sure that's going to produce the period appropriate finish desired on certain guns.
Or do I have it all wrong regarding the 320 grit?
Last edited by Jawjadawg; 02/19/15 11:38 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862 |
On Steel barrels, (rather than pattern-welded ones) you can certainly go finer than 320, since you're not concerned with pattern contrast. I sometimes go to 500. Here's a set of Armas Erbi Sidelock barrels that have had three cycles, with another two or three to go. These were polished to 400, but I could have easily gone to 500 on them. You can still see light sanding marks if you look closely, but they will be gone (to the naked eye) by the time all the cycles are completed. When sanding using the finer grits, some type of magnification is helpful. I use an "Optivisor, so I can see the progress. I haven't tried it yet. but I'm probably going to experiment with a Vaporizer in my rusting cabinet. Anyone tried this yet? 
Last edited by Ken61; 02/20/15 08:32 AM.
I prefer wood to plastic, leather to nylon, waxed cotton to Gore-Tex, and split bamboo to graphite.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I live in the country & get my water from a natural spring. I very quickly found it was not suitable for the boiling tank in rust bluing. I made several attempts on a set of barrels & each time they would come out with a red tinge. I then went & picked up some "Drug Store" water & repeated the very same process with excellent results. Because mine won't work doesn't mean no-one elses will & because one person is able to use tap water likewise doesn't mean everyone can. It all Depends on what's in that source of water.
I have done one job using steam & it worked fine. A co-worker of mine had a large knife which had belonged to his father that originally had a blued blade that had worn off over the years. He asked me coud I blue it for him without taking the handles off. I told him I would try & see if I could. After rusting the blade I put a tea kettle on & turned the heat up enough to get a good steaming at the spout & simply held the blade in this until it turned a good color & carded. I of course had to repeat the process several times to get the desired results.
I do recall having read where many of the world's armories when rust bluing was still being used by them had steam Rooms where large numbers of barrels etc could be hung & steamed at once. Some of the larger commercial factories may well have done this as well. In fact this was what gave me the idea to try steam on that knife.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,217 Likes: 1201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,217 Likes: 1201 |
At the risk of seeming obvious to others, may ask a question about polishing? All I have ever done is new barrels that were not stamped with any lettering. How do you polish the lettered areas without washing out the lettering? I can understand polishing up to it very carefully, but do you just leave the areas between the letters and words alone? Or is there some way to polish those tiny areas without harming the roll stamping?
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862 |
I live in the country & get my water from a natural spring. I very quickly found it was not suitable for the boiling tank in rust bluing. I made several attempts on a set of barrels & each time they would come out with a red tinge. I then went & picked up some "Drug Store" water & repeated the very same process with excellent results. Because mine won't work doesn't mean no-one elses will & because one person is able to use tap water likewise doesn't mean everyone can. It all Depends on what's in that source of water.
I have done one job using steam & it worked fine. A co-worker of mine had a large knife which had belonged to his father that originally had a blued blade that had worn off over the years. He asked me coud I blue it for him without taking the handles off. I told him I would try & see if I could. After rusting the blade I put a tea kettle on & turned the heat up enough to get a good steaming at the spout & simply held the blade in this until it turned a good color & carded. I of course had to repeat the process several times to get the desired results.
I do recall having read where many of the world's armories when rust bluing was still being used by them had steam Rooms where large numbers of barrels etc could be hung & steamed at once. Some of the larger commercial factories may well have done this as well. In fact this was what gave me the idea to try steam on that knife.
I find that interesting, as the most famous Lynchburg product requires iron-free water for it's distillation. Their Spring must be fed from a fairly shallow aquifer, which is iron-free. Probably why I've read they're (or were) having water shortage problems due to drought. What you said makes local well water unsuitable for whiskey. Regards Ken
Last edited by Ken61; 02/20/15 09:25 AM.
I prefer wood to plastic, leather to nylon, waxed cotton to Gore-Tex, and split bamboo to graphite.
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 271
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 271 |
Good question, Stan.
Ken those barrels are looking great. Trying to polish up a set of barrels makes the damascus work I've seen Bachelder and others put out even more amazing. The colors are obviously very nice. Consistency of the polish they achieve is a headscratcher to a noob such as myself.
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