doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com British 12 ga waterfowl guns

I know bespoke guns could be made to whatever configuration the customer wanted, but what British makers produced 12 ga guns specifically marketed to the waterfowler? I'm thinking of guns similar to W.W. Greener's "Far Killing" shotguns.

Where there other makers that commonly produced heavy (7 lbs +), tightly choked 12 ga guns as common production items? How common were 3 inch chambers proofed for 1 1/2 oz loads in British made waterfowl guns post WWII.

I'm starting to look for a vintage, British made, heavy 12 ga waterfowl gun and wanted to see what someone might suggest looking for, for say under $5000 to start with.

I went on a similar search a few years ago, and eventually found a Gallyon-branded boxlock made by AA Brown. 3" chambers, heavy proofs and 30" barrels choked F/F. It weighs around 7.5 lbs. There are some around but not a lot. Pigeon guns could be a reasonable alternative though not many have 3" chambers. If you are willing to pay to import something from the UK, they are more prevalent over there.

W&C Scott. GE Lewis, G&S Holloway, Greener, Tolley, Midland, BSA, Vickers, Dickson, etc have all produced fowling guns, as have most all Brit makers. 3" chambers aren't common, but they are out there. Your best bet will be a heavy proofed, 2.75" chambered gun built for water fowling or finding a Brit short chambered wild fowler 10 bore. Boxlock guns will be easier to find than a sidelock, and personally I'd prefer the BL if it was my water fowler. If 5k is your starting point, you have a plethora of choices out there. Lots of inventory stuck in limbo at the moment and Brit waterfowlers are notoriously hard to sell for dealers/individuals.

G.E. Lewis was one of the guns Capt. Chas. Askins used testing Western Cartridge Co.'s new Super-X loads along with the A.H. Fox Gun Co.'s HE-Grade Super-Fox in the early 1920s.

I have a interest in English waterfowl guns also, I settled on a W&C Scott Monte Carlo B 10 gauge with steel barrels for $4K for my first purchase. They were comparable to a Parker BH in terms of price and quality back in the day. Today a Parker BH will cost you 3x to 4X a W&C Scott Monte Carlo in my opinion.
As has been stated US dealer can't move English guns so now may be an ideal time to buy. They are out there.I am headed to the CLA in Leeds England this summer and hope to add a English waterfowler to the collection. Good Luck

I have a G.E. Lewis and Sons 1927 vintage 'Wildfowl Magnum' that is nitro proofed, at 1-1/2 ounces, with 3" chambers. The bores are 13/1 and the 32" barrels are full and full. These guns were supposed to bag the birds at 70+ yards! It is a very plain A&D boxlock with no engraving. The gun still matches the original ledger entries, too.

every winter there is a wildfowling article in the The Field

and it seems that Lewis and Tolley are always among those mentioned as makers of the guns of foreshore

Flinfan, I've been looking and thinking about a SxS British 12 waterfowler too. Trying to think through what I'm going to do though with shooting the non-lead shells. Open up the chokes to Mod and Mod or perhaps just find one and have the barrels lined.

Craig that WC Scott is stunning!

Internet gun dealers will move some British guns if they bring their prices to within reason. IMO, it is cheaper and easier to buy from a reputable auction house than be bothered with the Internet gun dealer. I have seen numerous British guns over the last 2 years that were sold at auction houses that were subsequently advertised a few months later by Internet gun dealers for 3 or 4 times what the gun sold for at auction.

William Cashmore made Twelve Gauge doubles with 3 �� chambers that were proofed for 1 1/4oz �I think that one of the early Issues of Double Gun Journal had an article on these 3 �� doubles. Berrien

Thank you everyone for the responses, I have an idea what to look for now, and know what I want is out there.

My main duck gun has been a Parker D grade 10 bore which I love, even at it's 9 1/2 lbs. I have been looking for something a little more versatile to use for certain situations, hence my new search for a heavy 12 gauge.

1cdog, I love the tight chokes, but I load all my own bismuth shells as well. If you want to use steel, then yes, I would consider opening them up. I agree with your assessment of watching the auctions. If I stay vigilant I'm sure I will find something soon. Best of luck to you as well, here's hoping we don't bid on the same gun!

Thomas Bland was another duck gun maker with models such as the 'Brent' etc. One thing to watch for is that the older English 3" chamber guns are not proofed for the 3" magnum cartridges used today. If you look at the proof marks and they are marked for 1 1/2 ounce then they are for the old 3" cartridge but are o.k. with 2 3/4" magnum loads.

Craig, good luck at the Game Fair. I'm certain that you will find what you are looking for. If you have cash then don't be afraid to haggle. There is a lot to choose from there and the dealer knows that and he wants your cash. They always put a bit on the asking price for the Game Fair so banter them down. Lagopus.....

Craig, my favorite British waterfowler is my 8 gauge Greener Royal 3 3/4" chambers for 2 1/2 ounces. By the way it would be smart for you to take someone with you who speaks the language. Your friend, Murphy

A very beautiful and mint Greener 8 bore hammer gun just sold on Gunbroker. See photos:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=469550384

You will need to look for a bit before finding another with a gold inlaid Crocodile.

DGM, wish I had seen that 8 bore Greener. What a stunning gun and it looked original. I think someone got a good deal there.

Flint, do you shoot bismuth thru full chokes? Good luck to you as well on the search/auctions. I would like to find a Greener Farkiller but the ones I have come across have appeared to have seen some very heavy use and treated rough.

Nice Greener but it looks like someone has chamfered out the first bit of the breech for a short distance to allow the use of Industrial cases without re-sizing them first. Lagopus.....

W. Richards boxlock from Griffin & Howe 3" chambered 30" barrels, 7lb. 8 oz.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/W-Richards-Boxlock-Extractor-12-ga.cfm?gun_id=100537943

Just noticed this on ebay --

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-GE-Lewis-Br...=item4d2f492a3a

Researcher!

This Watson Brothers BLE is my latest acquisition and next season's every day duck gun. 32" and 28" barrels.

That Watson is REALLY nice. ENVY, ENVY ~!!!!!!

I picked up a Jeffrey BLNE a couple years ago with side clips,1 1/4 oz proofs, Greener cross-bolt, and 30" barrels. It has the thickest muzzles I've seen on a gun weighing around 7.5 lbs. Flat file-cut rib. Solid gun.

Nice two barrel set with the Watson. You can just see where someone at the Proof House accidently picked up the 1 1/4 oz. stamp and used that before realising the mistake and over stamping with 1 5/8 oz. Don't see many with that mark, the next common stamp would be for 1 1/2 oz.

eeb, sounds as if you have an old live pigeon gun. I have a hammer Jeffrey pigeon gun. Chances are that it will be well choked. Lagopus.....

I have a 7 3/4 lb. Wm Cashmore that came from Aus. which is 2 3/4 1 1/4 oz proofed with 30" m/f. It has a greener cross bolt but no side clips. It is not high stocked so I assume it was a waterfowl gun. I made a comb riser of blue foam and have a mole skin piece over it to use as a ZZ bird gun.

I have wondered if it was a pigeon gun because it is stocked fairly high, like 1 1/2" by 2 1/4"; however, the auto safety makes me think it's a waterfowler. It was made in 1937 and has the Made in England stamped on the watertable, which I assume was to designate it made for export. Great clays gun. The chokes should be opened, but I can't bring myself to do it. I looked at (and lusted over) a hammer Jeffrey on Digory Haddoke's website. Too rich for me, but what a gun.

I have a Greener Empire 12b, 30" barrels, 3" chambers, full and full, which I bought from Macdonalds in Oz.

Also a Jeffery 12b BLE shot and ball gun, 32" barrels, 3 1/4" chambers, sideclips. It has folding leaf sights for 50 and 100 yards for slugs.

Both are fine for waterfowl but I wish a previous owner had not opened up the chokes on the Jeffery to 1/4.

And I wish nontox were cheaper. I finally bought a modern CZ USA hammergun to use with steel.

I have an old Pape with 3" chambers and 1 1/2 proof.

Beautiful gun, Oberndorf. How long are the inseams on those legs?

SRH

Wow! R.M. shot two barrels into sitting geese and killed the first at 120 yds. and the second at 129. Wonder if they both were the ones he was shooting at?

SRH

As part of Dr Jim's "Long Range Wild Fowl" article in the Spring 2013 Double Gun Journal Volume 24, Issue 1, p. 137, Bro. David patterned his LRWF, both barrels .042" constriction, with a handload using a 3 inch Winchester (plastic) hull with 38.35 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester AASL wad, and 1 3/8 ounces of #5 nickel plated shot. The average number of pellets was 246 and measured weight 1.353 ounce.
Using a rangefinder confirmed distance of 82 yards, 3 shots were taken holding at the top of the 30 inch circle:
Target 1. Right barrel - 13 pellets in 30" circle; 5 in duck, 2 in wing. Percentage .052.
Target 2. Right barrel - 20 pellets; 6 in duck. Percentage .081.
Target 3. Left barrel - 21 pellets; 6 in duck and possible breaking both wings. Percentage .085.

If we only had a 'Woolwich'!

I have a Boswell BLNE that was sold in 1922 for �25 and is described in their records as a "pigeon gun." It has 32" barrels (M & F), sideclips, a PoW stock and a cross bolt third bite. The rib is file-cut and sports two ivory beads. It has 3" - 1 1/2 ounce proof. Weight is 7lbs 12 oz. The gun was re-imported from New Zealand.

These are the marks on the Gallyon waterfowler I picked up several years ago. For some reason, they struck the 1 1/2 oz mark and marked it 3" and 4 tons.

I think this is from the 1950s. Birmingham made, Webley 700 style action. 7lb,5oz. Choked IM.

I wouldn't shoot heavy loads well in a straight gripped 7# 5 oz. double. Too hard to recover from the first shot's recoil. Sometimes I wonder why they built them like that.

SRH

Because of the double triggers (situated where movement to the back trigger is easier, in theory anyway) and straight stocks are more pleasing to the eye for many people, I'm guessing. Where a straight grip bugs me is for rough hunting and I'm at the ready most of the day.......seems to bother my wrist more than a pistol grip. I see what you mean about hanging on with recoil though.

Buzz, I didn't mean straight grips alone, I meant the combination of straight grip, relatively light weight and proofed for heavy loads.

I have a Fox A grade with 32" barrels and 3" chambers, straight gripped. Also have a 32" Super Fox with pistol grip and 3" chambers. Night and day difference in how fast you can recover for the second shot. That A grade is the only S x S I have ever owned that will make my second finger of my trigger hand sore when shooting a 100 bird round of clays. I just do not handle recoil well with a straight grip. I ain't no "Mr. Nash", with hands like a bear. Pistol grips just handle recoil much better, IMO.

SRH

Doverham, your Gallyon has been through re-proof but it looks as if they missed the 'R' with crown over mark.

English 3" guns used to be proofed for the old 3" case with 1 1/2 ounce of shot then Eley upset the apple cart by bringing out another 3" cartridge loaded with 1 5/8th. ounce which required guns proofed for 4 tons per square inch. Caused a lot of confusion back in the 60's. One thing to watch with the older English 3" chambered guns. They are o.k. with 2 3/4 inch magnums but not more modern 3 " stuff. Lagopus.....

To Lagopus' point:

Chamber Length 1954 Stamping(in Tons) Service Pressure (in PSI)

2 1/2, 1 1/8 oz, 3 Tons, 8,943 psi

2 3/4, 1 1/4 oz, 3 1/4 Tons, 9,686

3, 1 1/2 oz, 3 1/2 Tons, 10,427

3 Magnum , 4 Tons, 11,913

This is a late post. Recently found a GE Lewis 12 b with 3 inch chambers that was imported by Hill & Rod. price was under 4K. Proofed for 1 1/2 oz shot made in the mid 1920's, excellent condition.

Have several 10 b SXS. I like the British water fowling guns.
Jim

I'd love to see some pictures of them, ohiochuck. I am a fan of big waterfowling doubles, too.

SRH

I might as well jump in. Here is a G&S Holloway. I use it mostly for sporting clays, have not shot at any ducks since I acquired it but it is only a matter of time. Nice wood and decent engraving. Not one to throw in the bottom of the boat for the dog to walk on. Sorry, this is the only pic I have of it. 32" barrels, 1 1/2 ounce 3" proofs. If I recall it was built in the late 50's or early 60's.

I have a 3" Arthur Howell BLNE with 28" barrels, 1 1/2 oz., Birmingham proof marked in 1940, 7 pounds 9 oz., nice original condition with ~70+% case color. Greener lever work, no 3rd grip, Deeley Edge forend fastener.

I assume it was built as a waterfowl gun, but with 28" barrels, I am not sure.

This was the advertising for the GE Lewis I purchased last month.
When it arrived it was as advertised
Jim

GE LEWIS, B'HAM, BLE, 3", 32" choked Full/Fuller, original proof for 1 1/2oz. 14 7/8" moderately figured wood - this includes a 7/8" well matched wood extension. Wood is exceptionally clean with crisp checkering. Action retains nearly all its original case colors, has clipped fences, Greener style cross bolt, game scene engraving with the breech end of the barrels engraved to boot. The proof marks tell us the gun was built between 1904 and 1924 - the gun is incredibly fresh - a rare find indeed. 7lbs 10oz.

LGS had two extractor guns 30" barrels IM/F chokes. The weight and handling fit and finish were very, very similar. One was pre-WWII J.P. Sauer the other William Jackman Jeffrey. The J.P. Sauer was better because it cost exactly half as much as the English gun. You can undercut the English "fowler" by big margin and still get same built quality. If you want to see what they can look like please see first pick by original poster under German & Austrian guns topic New purchase: Simson. The only differences between J.P. Sauer and Simson pictured were double triggers instead of single Miller, no cocking indicators or side panel checkering. Be sure to shop around before you buy.

I always thought British fowler was wonderful alternative to Winchester Model 21. What you end up with is better quality gun with actual tasteful engraving for less than Winchester will cost you.

Most Gunmakers had a wildfowl model in their itinery. One to look for if you want a good strong 'no nonsense' wildfowl gun at a reasonable price is the BSA Magnum 3" gun. Mainly made as a non-ejector but ejector models were made. I would suggest the former. I have one in my gun cabinet and can't fault it. Lagopus.....

This thread needs more pictures!!!

Beautiful guns!!!!

Those are great bargains. One can get some scroll, ejectors and yes factory 3" chambers not to mention barrel construction just like our legendary Winchester Model 21. Bravo.

Yes, more pictures please. Now I'm going to make me some Earl Gray in French glass and put two squares of Cuban cane sugar when it is ready. I will concede if I was to get opportunity to dredge through marshes with fowler in East Anglia versus those in Schleswig-Holstein I would pick East Anglia or is it Scotland every time. I'm sorry I do not know where in Great Britain great fowling can be had.

I don't have a British 12 waterfowler, but I do have an Alexander McComas Baltimore marked British 36" eight and a 33' Greener Royal eight. Sad that I can't handle them any more.

I don't understand the waterfowl distinction. None is made in Nova Scotia where gunning is in as harsh habitat for fowl up to largest size generally on the continent.

(Bill, don't be sad. Most of us are in the same boat or getting there. We saw the best of it.)

Did you ever hunt these guns? Is it legal to use a 8 gauge if you have 10 gauge inserts?

Now would not be bad time to move these to new homes. Given that money and interest in such things lies in older community I doubt there will be better time to move these in the future. Now back to British tea, kosher Babka from Brooklyn and Swamp People on History channel. Life is grand!

PS. Hey, I just thought of something. Our summer is their winter our crocs are their salt water crokodiles. Would it not be more fun to hunt marshes of NWT of Australia. A possibility of being taken for a roll by Salty would make the hunt more exciting, no? Sort of like hunting Ginea Fowl where Lions, Buffalo, Hippo,.....are found. Oops I forgot the African crocs.

Jagermeister, those BSA guns with their dovetail lump construction were the inspiration for Winchester's to construct their Model 21's along similar lines. Very strong guns. I'll see about posting a picture of mine.

Some great coastal wildfowling places all around the U.K. being an island. Lots of opportunities inland as well. I drove past a field on Thursday when off pigeon shooting and there must have been over 200 Canadian and greylag geese feeding. Look out for a copy of 'The Modern Fowler' by James Wentworth-Day first published in 1934 but has been re-printed at least three times to my knowledge. Mainly about East Anglia. I shall be off to a favourite wildfowl shooting area in the next couple of weeks (not shooting as out of season) and that is the Holy Island of Lindisfarne of the north east coast of Northumberland. I have a brilliant picture somewhere of a skein of Brent Geese flying past Lindisfarne Castle. Thought I had it in Photobucket but couldn't find it; something else to seek out and possible post.

Cheapest copy I can find is on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Modern-Fowler-J-Wentworth-Day-Shooting-Fowling-/401268710493 Lagopus.....

Below some pics of a W.P.Jones 10bore hammer gun that belonged to a friend of mine in Lancashire.It did some serious work on the local pinkfeet and greylags on the NW coast of Lancashire but in a weak moment he let it slip from his grasp and it now helps to control our local goose population.34" steel barrels choked full & full and 3 1/2" nitro chambered.

Terry, the gun looks to be a perfect complement to Mr. Short's former single-shot Greener 10 of yours. Was the Jones double re-barreled or sleeved?? Gil

Hi Gil, I guess I should elaborate"the rest of the story" as the title does say 12ga.waterfowl guns.This gun has undergone a pretty major transformation.The gun appears to have been made in the 1890's with this set of steel barrels. It has three sets of proof marks beginning with the first 12 ga.black powder marks and then being nitro re-proofed post 1925 with 3" 12 ga.marks and finally
being re-chambered and magnum proofed for 3 1/2" 10 ga. in 1962.
I believe it was first built as a chamberless 12 and originally over bored for thin brass cases.The bores measured .765 at 10 ga. proof and remain the same with min.wall thickness of .055. The gun weighs 9 lbs. 14 oz.Seriously heavy barrels.You don't have to worry about stopping your swing once you get them moving...

What a gun, Clipped fences and big barrels. I sadly did not buy a great Purdey Damascus hammer gun proved for 3 1/2" magnum tens

90% of all my wingshooting is waterfowling. Pics of heavy 12's and 10's really do "it" for me. Thank you to Terry and the other fellows who go to the trouble of posting such pics.

Mergus