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Forums10
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Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,997 Likes: 112
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,997 Likes: 112 |
Ted, good point about choice of ammo. I think, thanks to this BB and some others, people are a lot smarter about what to stuff in their vintage doubles than they were 20 years ago. My first classic double was a very plain but very solid pre-WWII Sauer 16. Immediately lengthened the chambers, then proceeded to shoot high brass 1 1/8 oz loads at a lot of pheasants. The only thing that ever broke on that gun was the piece linking the top lever to the Greener crossbolt. But then Sauers (and German guns in general) have a reputation for solid build. I learned the error of my ways, and when I buy a used European gun, I try to pick the ones that don't show signs of abuse. And I won't touch a Brit gun that's had its chambers punched, unless it's passed reproof. You live and learn.
Meanwhile . . . I'm wondering whether Kyrie is digging around in his gun safe for that 125 year old Spanish driven bird gun. Or, maybe Kyrie's spending the time trying to find that Spanish gun that isn't an English copy. ;-)
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,227 Likes: 129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,227 Likes: 129 |
Well, I think this thread has run its course. It seems someone got mad, picked up his marbles and went home.
But, he'll be back!
Take care all!
Greg
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 500 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 500 Likes: 10 |
Kyrie, again you're talking what happens NOW with driven hunts, not what happened "back in the day", when Brits like Ripon were recording hundreds of thousands of dead birds in their game books.
No Larry, I have clearly been talking about both now and pre-civil war Spain. --- snip --- Kyrie, you have a very extensive collection of Spanish guns. How many of them date from before WWII?
Several. Any date from before WWI?
Yes. Personally, I've seen darned few pre-WWII Spanish guns, and I don't believe I've ever seen one made prior to WWI. Meanwhile, there are any number of folks here shooting British guns that were made 40 years or more prior to WWI. And some of them saw extensive use in driven shoots. Can you come up with any Spanish examples from that era that have seen similar use?
Yes. And the Spanish guns would still pass current C.I.P. proof. Did you follow the earlier thread about all the British guns failing proof now that the British proof houses have begun to actually implement C.I.P. proof? How many of those pre-WWII (much less pre-WWI) guns do you think would actually pass proof today? Guns that go back to the black powder/early nitro/corrosive primer era? Shotshell technology, modern steel vs pre-WWI steel . . . details like that make a significant difference in how long a gun is likely to survive under hard use, especially with minimal "preventive maintenance". You have maybe a 125 year old Spanish gun you can compare to a British gun of similar age? If not, then you don't have one that was used under anything approaching similar conditions.
Utter nonsense. Without two equally complete and detailed 125 year long records of use you have no idea what conditions two guns experienced and no hope of comparing the two guns. I have a very few guns where I've talked with descendents of the original owner and know quite a bit about what it was used for and how much of that use the guns had. Without that kind of provenance you have little idea what, if any use a gun has had or whether any gun I have had less, similar, or more use. As for Spanish guns not being copies of British guns: The Spanish don't make A&D boxlocks? Holland-pattern sidelocks? --- snip ---
Irrelevant. The subject was British light game guns, which are defined by their relative light weight for their chambering. These are typically SxS guns chambered for the 12 gauge, 2.75 inch shell and weighing no more than 6.75 pounds, or chambered for the 2.5 inch 12 gauge shell and weighing no more than 6.5 pounds, or chamber for the 2 inch 12 gauge shell and weighing no more than 6.25 pounds. Type of action isn’t a part of the definition and doesn’t matter. Spanish gun makers (especially AyA) can and do make light game guns for the English trade, but the that’s small change to their bread and butter gun, which is a European medium game gun (an approximately seven pound 12 gauge with 2.75 inch chambers). The demand for British light game guns is tiny, and only AyA has bothered to cater to it.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 500 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 500 Likes: 10 |
The point about maintenance in the discussion I was trying to make was that a sidelock would, with more moving parts, need more of it, than a boxlock. Nothing more.
I understand, and concur. I had a worn out sidelock when I was a younger man. If it was from lack of maintenance, or much use, or, much abuse, I don't know. Since I bought the gun, here, in the US, use with ammunition outside of the gun's design parameters is suspect, but, I have no proof. It was purchased as a project gun, and sold the same way, and likely is a project gun, somewhere, to this day. This was back in the 1980s. We have a better grasp of what a gun of that design and level of proof should be fed for ammunition today. I would like, someday, to try owning another sidelock. A real sidelock, inspite of the fact I got burned, once. The trouble I have is a boxlock does all I need at a much lower price of admittance. Well, that, and I'm cheap.
Best, Ted If you decide to take the plunge let me know what you are looking for and a price range and I’ll keep an eye out for something that fits the bill.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 500 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 500 Likes: 10 |
--- snip --- Meanwhile . . . I'm wondering whether Kyrie is digging around in his gun safe for that 125 year old Spanish driven bird gun.
Nope. Unlike some folks here I work for a living. And if you think driven bird shooting is hard on a gun you ain’t seen nothing. Try looking at guns that have been on the live pigeon circuit. Those guns go on driven hunts for a rest :-)
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,227 Likes: 129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,227 Likes: 129 |
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,227 Likes: 129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,227 Likes: 129 |
--- snip --- Meanwhile . . . I'm wondering whether Kyrie is digging around in his gun safe for that 125 year old Spanish driven bird gun.
Nope. Unlike some folks here I work for a living. And if you think driven bird shooting is hard on a gun you ain’t seen nothing. Try looking at guns that have been on the live pigeon circuit. Those guns go on driven hunts for a rest :-) A bit of a slap in the face IMO! Lets set the record straight here. Larry Brown is Retired from the US Army (as a full Colonel) he also has written a book and publishes articles for several major gun magazines every month. Can we have a list of your published articles/works? He knows what he's talking about when it comes to Brit guns, you yourself have stated that you have no interest in Brit guns, yet, you sure have an opinion on them. It's becoming quite clear that if someone does not agree with every word you utter, they're some kind of neanderthal. Case in point, you won't admit that Spanish gunmakers copied English game gun, all you do is toss out weights, chamber lengths etc. but you sure make condescending remarks to those that state this simple truth. The fact is the Spanish copied the English, not the other way around. And yes pigeon guns are different than game guns, so your comment in your own words is irrelevant
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,452 Likes: 127
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,452 Likes: 127 |
Kyrie, you're wandering around in the wilderness. Live pigeon guns ain't driven game guns. They're a whole bunch heavier. Horses for courses, as they say. (Likewise, the specialty guns for very high driven birds are also longer, heavier, more like sporting clays guns.)
Just to clarify, pre-Civil War Spain is almost WWII. What was going on in the way of driven shooting in Spain between, say, 1870-1914? What guns were they shooting? If the Spanish makers were producing guns in any kind of numbers in those days--or, for that matter, between the wars--why do we see so few of them in this country? (Make that almost none, if we're talking pre- WWI production.) In contrast, there are THOUSANDS of between the wars Brit game guns still seeing regular use in this country and the UK; for that matter, THOUSANDS of pre-WWI Brit game guns as well. Where are all those old Spaniards? Did many of them exist at all, or have most of them fallen to pieces from the hard use--perhaps combined with a lack of periodic maintenance?
I look at the inventories of the major doublegun dealers in this country, and I have no problem finding older German guns, older Belgian guns, older French guns. Rare to find a pre-WWII Spanish gun, although lots of postwar ones. To paraphrase the late Pete Seeger: Where have all those old Spanish guns gone? Gone to graveyards every one?
As for passing proof, the only way to know for sure is to submit the gun for proof. Otherwise you're whistling in the dark. Which reminds me of the modern Spanish 28ga from one of their best makers which passed Spanish proof with a thin spot of .014 in one barrel. Blew the barrel with a standard 28ga target load, injuring the shooter.
When we compare guns, we don't go by weight. We go by design. The fact is, the Spanish copied Brit designs, like the Holland sidelock and the A&D boxlock. All they did was make them somewhat fatter in many cases, especially 12's. Bravo for them. The Brits themselves did the same thing, long before the Spanish ever thought of it. You can make a pigeon gun or a wildfowl gun based on the Holland sidelock or the A&D boxlock, just as easily as you can make a game gun based on those designs.
And by the way, if you find a 2" 12ga that weighs 6 1/4, it ain't gonna be British. It will be Spanish. I've seen a couple Spanish 2" guns (with 850 bar proof) that weigh over 6. Most of the Brit 2" guns I've seen are down around 5 1/2. Some less than that. That was part of the idea behind the 2" 12: Lighter gun, lighter shot charge, basically for women and youngsters. But some grouse hunters on this side of the pond like the idea also.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 168 Likes: 57
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 168 Likes: 57 |
I am not a Spanish gun expert, but there is a bit of history on this subject in the book, ‘Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain’, by Terry Wieland.
From what is written in his book, it seems that the Basques started to become influenced by the English gunmakers sometime following the Napoleonic Peninsular War. It began with the discovery of quality Spanish steel gun barrels by English Officers and their London gunmakers, which in turn later created a trade in Spanish iron ore and English coal between the two countries. Following this, it appears the real emulation of English gunmaking started in earnest during the early 1900’s through King Alphonso XIII of Spain and his enthusiasm for English guns and shooting sports. The King became a real fan of James Purdey & Sons gunmaking and so patronized them heavily. As such, the Spanish gunmakers starting with Victor Sarasqueta (whom was appointed Royal Gunmaker to the King in 1902), began to copy the style of the Purdey guns for the King. “That Alfonso XIII was a dedicated lover of Purdey guns does not mean that he neglected the gunmakers of Spain. In Eibar, the Basque gunmakers were flourishing amid Spain’s enthusiastic pursuit of the shooting sports, and none more so than Victor Sarasqueta. ..... From that time [1902] until Alfonso’s fall from power [1931], Sarasqueta was the king’s favourite Basque gunmaker, and the Basque guns (all modeled after Purdeys) resided in the royal gun cabinets alongside the Purdeys that Alfonso put to such good use.” Source: Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain, by Terry Wieland, published 2001, Pg. 29. Pigeon Shooting: Because live pigeon shooting was so very popular in England at the time [1903], King Alfonso XIII of Spain “approached Athol Purdey for help in founding a pigeon shooting club in Spain....By introducing live-pigeon shooting into Spain, King Alfonso XIII was setting a path for Spanish gunmaking that continues to this day…..Demand for pigeon guns grew, and those who could not emulate the king by ordering Purdeys made up for it by patronizing the Basque gunmakers of Eibar. For their part, the gunmakers responded with enthusiasm, perfecting copies of the Purdey pigeon guns for their own less-well-heeled clientele." Driven Shooting: “At the same time [1904], King Alfonso’s enjoyment and devotion to game shooting encouraged the Spaniards to emulate the British, and shooting driven red-legged partridge on vast estates of La Mancha became typically Spanish, just as shooting driven grouse defined the British upper classes.“
Source: Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain, by Terry Wieland, published 2001, pgs. 19 -29.
Tim
Last edited by Tim Cartmell; 04/04/15 12:14 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,949 Likes: 872
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,949 Likes: 872 |
Tim, I'm not an expert with any gun design, but, there is something a little bit suspicious in the quotes from that book. If one is going to set about copying a design of English sidelock, the Holland & Holland sidelock, with Southgate ejectors, is the easier of the two to pull off. The Beasley patent Purdey self opener is much more difficult to get right. I'll let others argue about which design is superior, but, when one sees a well executed sidelock game gun copy (think current production Spanish or Miroku sidelock) there is good reason that it is the Holland design. Further, almost all of the makers out of Spain today tell you straight up in their catalog that their sidelock guns are paterned after the Holland design. Why would they have changed, if they spent time and effort to get the Purdey/Beasley copy right?
Best, Ted
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