doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com BATF&E Rules and Definitions

"Jent," so as not to reinvent the wheel, as it were, below is a cut-and-paste cite from one of my earlier posted responses to another correspondent's question similar in nature to yours, to wit:

In the interest of providing helpful information to the correspondents for the many forums on this site, let me clarify a point of confusion that I remark has arisen here and elsewhere on this website regarding the correct cut-off date for determining whether a gun is an unregulated "antique firearm," as that class is defined in the United States Code, or whether the gun in question falls instead under some other firearm classification that is regulated.

The relevant federal statute creates three firearm classifications: (a) "antique firearm," (b) "curio & relic," and (c) "modern." The first classification mentioned is wholly unregulated, while the latter two are indeed regulated and do require the participation of licensed dealers or collectors. The correct statutory cut-off date for a piece classified as an "antique firearm" is 1 January 1899. This correct date would be more commonly expressed, "pre-1899," or even "post 1898."

In the pertinent federal statute, "antique firearm," as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. � 921(a)(16), means �

"A. any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898 (emphasis added); or

B. any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica �

i. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

ii. any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term �antique firearm� shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or

C. any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

Please reference the remainder of the above statute on-line, if you have an interest in the other classifications, which I will not address here.

Without considering the sometimes confusing language within the parenthesis, which was itself added for clarification purposes, the statute's lede paragraph reads: "Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898." Do not confuse or conflate the black powder and muzzle loading or black powder replicas aspects of the above statute with the lede paragraph; they are but further refinements of the issue of muzzle loaders or replicas as antique firearms or not. In no manner do those clarifications alter the basic legal point that any firearm "manufactured in or before 1898" (meaning: before and up to 1 January 1899) is an "antique," period.

If classified as an "antique firearm," which again means it is wholly unregulated by the federal government, the gun can be shipped via your or the dealer's/seller's choice of carrier anywhere to anyone in the United States. Some anti-gun states, however, have laws that cumber such transactions, although if you live in such a restrictive state, you will likely already know of the problem and know how to deal or have in the past dealt with the encumbrance. As well, in my experience, international shipments are best left to licensed firearms dealers and import/export experts that are experienced and have long dealt with firearm shipments. Personally, for the purpose of purchase (I do not sell my guns.) or refurbishment/repair, I have shipped from and received at home or office antique firearms, both domestically and internationally, via chosen carrier many dozens of times without interference from our federal or local government agencies.

I have assumed that you may be intending to ship or receive an "antique firearm" via common carrier (e.g. USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc.), so I have kept that aspect of my earlier post intact because of that assumption. While the "antique firearm" classification does not statutorily reconstitute the piece as a non-firearm (a "firearm" per se is a "modern firearm," in the Government's parlance), it does mean that the antique gun is entirely unregulated by federal agencies, and that in most cases the same will be unregulated by many state governments as well, in accordance with their respective controlling statutes, which in the main will be found to mirror the federal statute above.

I hope the foregoing helps answer your inquiry, as well as answers those questions of like kind from any other correspondent to this always informative and enjoyable site.


Regards,

Edwardian

Thank you. That answers my question.

I have a question that I doubt anyone here can answer but it ought to give you all pause. There has to have been literally thousands of former FFL holders bound books turned in over the years. Understanding this; there should be a large storage facility of these bound ledgers on file. If an inquiry for a firearm used in a crime goes from manufacturer to distributor to FFL holder to the consumer and the FFL holder has turned in their records how does the BATF do the search? Do they go digging thru piles of musty bound 4473s? One has to wonder if they have been surreptiously encoding these onto a data base over the years?
Jim

Jim,
what most people do not understand is that the all of the information on a 4473 does not get sent in during a background check. I enter your details and the type of gun into the system but none of the details related to the gun such as manufacturer or serial #. Those details are retained on site through the 4473. You are pretty much correct in that a manual search is conducted on the part of an FFL holder during a trace. I believe that the BATF does put them into a searchable database once and FFL goes out of business and send the records in, but I am not certain of this aspect. Hope that helps a bit.
Steve

The bound books that are turned in and the photos that are taken of 4473s are incorporated into a state of the art database.

The BTFE is a rouge agency, they are not a gunners friend.

Jent,

I would heartily suggest that you address any questions regarding BATF regulations to the Washington Field Division at 202-927-8810. They will answer any question that you might pose and will likely be very courteous and happy to do so.
You don't even have to identify yourself if you don't want to do so (but they already know who you are, according to Alex Jones anyway).
Contrary to the opinions of some, the ATF is not "out to get you".
When I have a question or need clarification regarding regulations I call the ATF directly. You're far more likely to get the correct answers from them than from an internet forum.

Regarding the characterization of the BATF as a "rogue agency", I have to wonder how many of the people here have had their doors kicked in at 2AM by the ATF? Zero is the number that I'm guessing. How many FFL holders in full-time business regard the ATF as a danger to them? Or as the gun owners greatest enemy?

I'm pretty sure that the ATF wouldn't crack the top 5 "dangers to gun owners".

It seems to me that American gun owners are their own worst enemy. Here are a few examples, in no particular order:

1)Gun rags - It was Guns & Ammo that coined the phrases "assault rifle" and "assault pistol", thanks guys.

2)Youtube - Rednecks with guns and explosives, 'nuff said.

3)"Patriot preppers" - Make sure that you have guns buried, the end is near.

4)Open-carry zealots - This is a civilized, first-world country. If you want to carry your black rifle or AK everywhere you go, move to Angola.

5)"Militia" types - Paranoid much?

I'm willing to bet that I've had much more contact with the ATF than most of the people here and I've never experienced anything but courtesy and a helpful attitude from their personnel.

Obviously, being a large government agency that hires from across a large demographic, there are bound to be some bad apples, no different than anywhere else.

Oh yeah,

ANYTHING manufactured prior to 1898 (inclusive) is not a firearm and is not subject to any federal regulations of any sort.

Some states DO regulate antique firearms, though. New Jersey is one example.

I would second what Mr. Vicknair is saying. Go direct & ask. I've not done that recently, but I have done it and was treated w/courtesy and given the correct information I needed at the time.

In the course of this discussion I would also mention that most times a gun is being worked on it is logged into something, so there is another place a record is being kept w/the serial number and owner's data. I do not know if that is because a gunsmith is an FFL holder or some other law coming into effect or no law at all aside from sound business practice. Its not an issue I am concerned about; that practice was going on well before the GCA of '68.

The GCA of '68 requires that a gunsmith doing work for the public have a FFL, the same FFL that a dealer has. Guns held for work overnight must be logged into and out of a bound book. Work that is done while the customer waits does not have to be logged. The foregoing was true from 1982 through 1996 while I had an FFL for gun repair, and I don't think it has changed.

Tom is 100% correct. Overnight for repairs: The gun must be logged into the FFL holders records. If a gun is pawned it must be logged in as well and another background check performed if the person who pawned it redeems the firearm.
Jim