doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com AyA Celebrates Century of Involvement in the Shotg

Hi Jager, good question. Just to set things straight, this post is referring to Spanish guns prior to 1900, nothing modern, just vintage guns. That there was a gun trade in Spain over 100 years ago is not in doubt by any here. In terms of shotguns however, I believe the trade was much smaller than what Kyrie states. Of course the Spanish made shotguns, as to the quality of these guns, who knows, many have asked for examples and got none. If these guns do exist, where are they? One point to consider is Kyrie has stated that the Spanish really don't take care of their guns, if this is so, then I guess they fell apart thru abuse rather than use. I say this as I have not been able to find any reference to these massive driven shoots in Spain that he has referred to. If the guns have fallen apart then the original quality must have been poor or the owner just didn't give a damn and let the gun go to hell. The other thing to consider, if these guns were made in quantity they should be found in gunshops throughout Spain as L.B. has stated. I've looked at some of the big gunshop websites (Spanish) and I've not found any. In more modern times, King Alfonso XIII (who came of age and enthroned in 1905) was a huge fan of James Purdey & Sons. He bought several from the firm and was regarded by Purdey as the "finest friend this firm has ever had" (paraphrasing here). If the Spanish made such great shotguns, why did he buy English shotguns? I'm sure he did have some Spanish guns (made specifically for him, not the masses) but you would think he'd support his own countries gunmakers before a foreign maker....if they were any good. He did grant Royal Warrants to Victor Sarasqueta, but he used Purdeys almost exclusively, bit of a conundrum here.

Anyway, like others, I'm waiting to see an example of a fine vintage Spanish gun. But I'm not holding my breath!

Greg

Couple horseflies in your yogurt there, Larry. One, is, you can't get a nice, new 700 built to order. Yes, there are English boxlocks available new, but, you can arm your 4 man hunting camp with Spanish boxlocks for the price of one. Two, the Spanish design might be a copy, but, it can be had with some improvements, disc set strikers being a HUGE improvement over integral striker/tumblers, for us mere mortals who don't rent our basements out to a skilled gunsmith, anyway. I've seen two good English guns sidelined for months over broken strikers. I have been told there exist 700s with disc set strikers, but, I've never seen one.
I've seen them on a 500. Yes it was light, and had a 2 1/2" level of proof. And, it was really old, too. A few of us have moved on from our frail, old, lightly proofed, but, still expensive, gun phase.
You can specify some nice options on a Spanish boxlock, self opening (not my cup of tea) hidden third fastener, steel shot proof, 3" proof, second set of barrels, fitted case, whatever you are willing to pay for. A used 700 is a nice gun, but, they ain't free, and you can get a lot closer to bespoke out of Spain, for realistic money.
Until someone very knowledgable, who is from Spain, tells me there were no companies building guns there, prior to WWI, I am going to believe the Spaniards did have an arms industry. I doubt the queen of Spain sent Christopher Columbus to England for armament for his first big adventure, after all. Civilian arms production would grow quite comfortably out of military production.


Best,
Ted

As the gun ragger once more jumps to a fallacious conclusion.


Speaking of cost, I can buy any number of very nice, used, condition VG to like new, Spanish box lock SxS shotguns for between $400 and $600. How much does one of your W&S box locks go for?

You, sir, are right on target.

Two things squeezed the guns, and especially the older guns, out of Germany, France, and England. For Germany and France, that thing was foreign invasion and looting. For England, it was economic collapse and a hundred years of confiscatory taxation that forced the well-to-do to sell whatever they had to make the estate taxes.

Spain was never invaded nor occupied in the 20th century and so never looted by enemies or allies.

The only occasion I know of when confiscatory taxation had any impact on Spanish gun ownership was circa 2006, when a yearly per gun tax was established. That flushed tens of thousands of Spanish �tax forfeiture� shotguns out and into the hands of the Civil Guard. This was the first time I saw any number of the older (i.e. pre-Civil War) shotguns outside of estates. The really nice guns were quickly snapped up by Spanish collectors and the Spanish gun shops that cater to those collectors. I was lucky enough to get a beautiful Joaqu�n Fern�ndez model 15000 (�Oliva�) made circa 1920 from these guns. I missed an outstanding Eduardo Schilling model 28 (circa 1911) because I hesitated, and let pass a Schilling model Eustaquio and model 310 (circa 1890) because I don�t care for hammer or under lever guns.

Many of the more recent, and more common, guns were imported into the USA (primarily by CAI) and sold cheap. At one point I bought four guns from CAI, sight unseen, for $167.87 each, delivered. One of these four guns was a wonderful VS box lock, proof year 1939, and another was a mint condition Garbi box lock. The third and fourth guns were a mid-range ZH side lock and an entry level Jabe box lock.

Bottom line: 99.9% the really nice guns made from about 1880 on are still there, and still in some estate or a collector�s inventory.

Couple things:

Quote; "Spain was never invaded nor occupied in the 20th century and so never looted by enemies or allies"

Really. I suppose the Civil War had no effect on the Spain. Both sides just tossed flowers at each other. The Basque region was Republican. The Nationalist's devastated the region. Both sides looted and destroyed large parts of Spain. Historical fact! To say that Spain was untouched by war (foreign or domestic)is ridiculous! The Nationalist's took over the gun making firms/shops for their own purposes, and making shotguns was not one of them.

Quote: "Bottom line: 99.9% the really nice guns made from about 1880 on are still there, and still in some estate or a collector�s inventory."

Then show us.

Greg

You can perhaps point to sources in this country for such guns . . . with the same features a W&$ 700 has (ejectors, to start with)? Awaiting the source of said treasure trove. And if they're in 12ga, can you find any in the sub-6 1/2 range, where it's not hard to find British game guns?

As for those guns you missed, I think I noted ONE pre-WWI gun. Surely, if someone were interested in a vintage Spanish gun from 1900, one should be able to find one--if they're around, in any kind of numbers. And if they can be had at significantly lower prices than Brit guns from the same era, then I think there'd be a ready market for them in this country. As for features you don't like . . . the Brits were doing hammerless ejector guns well before 1900. Many of which are still in regular use.

There must be some REALLY serious collections in Spain, if those gun numbers approach anything like the number of Brit guns from 1880-1914 that are still in regular use . . . not to mention the ones that are in collections here, the UK, or elsewhere. That are as invisible to the public as are those phantom Spanish guns.

Ted, the Spanish were making a lot of military rifles back then. The Spanish Mauser was a superior weapon to our own standard issue 30-40 Krag in the Spanish-American War . . . but of course it was a German design. They do know how to copy good designs, no debating that! And no debating they made shotguns. Just a question of how many they made, how many survived, and where they are. As Greg pointed out, there was a lot of nastiness in Spain during the 30's, and the Basque region was on the losing side. But I'm still not quite buying the idea that, assuming there were all that many Spanish guns of very high quality, used for driven shooting as they were in England, some of them would not have shown up in this country--unless, for whatever reason, a whole lot of them don't exist any more. The Brits do have the advantage not only of not having been invaded since the 18th century, but also not having done much fighting on British soil in close to 3 centuries now.

You check prices on the AyA 4/53 lately, Ted? You can get a really nice W&S 700, maybe even cased, for about the same price as a nice used 4/53. Which would I take? Well . . . a good friend bought one of those Arrieta 2" 12's. Much more expensive gun. Nice that it did have disc-set strikers, because it had broken strikers almost immediately. I had a pair of mid-grade A&N boxlocks from the 30's with disc-set strikers. W&S made. They're nice features--especially if you're likely to break a striker. Those guns also weighed right at 6 1/4# apiece with 28" barrels. That's not much more than the weight of Spanish 2" 12's. So what you buy depends on what features you like. But then that Spanish 2" did have a modern 850 bar proof . . . which I guess is kinda nice to have, but also kinda defeats the purpose of weight reduction, which is what a 2" 12 is supposed to be all about.

No question what you can do bespoke out of Spain . . . NOW. That's not up for debate. What we're questioning is the output of the Spanish industry compared to the British 100 years or more ago, and how many survive today.

It�s just amazing the degree to which a gun rag writer can be ignorant. On-line auction houses, Larry, on-line auction houses. You�ve heard of those haven�t you? Sites like Gun Broker? I just did a quick query on Gun Broker and came up with a dozen very nice, used, condition VG to like new, Spanish 12 gauge box lock SxS shotguns for between $400 and $600.

See? It really isn�t hard if you bother to look.

You avoided my question on the cost of one of your W&S box locks. So I just did a query on W&S model 700 12 gauge box locks on Gun Broker and Guns International. They are priced between $1,800 and $4,000. You�re probably math challenged, so let me do the numbers for you. Your W&S 700 12 gauge box lock is between four and ten times as expensive as one of the Spanish box lock 12 gauges.

And yes, some of the Spanish shotguns have ejectors. Some also have single, selective, triggers, and are factory cut for choke tubes.

Looks like your W&S 700 12 gauge box lock is less gun for a lot more money. But you don�t care about that; you�re buying the name and not the gun, right?

The subject is vintage Spanish guns, not modern guns. I've seen some of those great $400 to $600 guns. For the most part they are low end guns that can in no way compare to a 700 or similar gun, no matter the maker. These "gems" are cheap imports and to be honest, pieces of junk.

When someone tosses out a number like 99.9% of fine 1880's and on guns are in some estate or in a collection, raises a red flag with me. To me it's someone blowing smoke and can't produce any examples. You have been asked to produce examples of vintage Spanish guns and so far have not. You always change the subject or try and side track the issue. It's time to you know what or get off the pot.

Pretty broad brush you are stroking there with, Greg. This is my $400 "Piece of Junk":



Disc set strikers, a very well fitted hidden third fastener, 3" chambers. Based on actual experience two friends have had with their 700s, I'd take it before either. Break the striker/tumbler in a 700, and you are down for the season, brother, until the gunsmith gets around to hogging a new one out for you. My gun has it's original strikers in it, but I have a spare set all ready to go. It works every time I pull the trigger, so far, anyway. No ejectors, as I don't care for them, or single triggers.

I don't believe the Uggy model 30 changed all that much from the late 1940s, until, say, now, but the Falcon version came with the afore mentioned little extras that current production guns don't have. No big deal. Even without the extras, a model 30 is a great gun, and I'd still buy one in front of a 700.

Best,
Ted