doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com James Rosier retailed W.W Greener hammer gun?

the gun looks nice...i think the forend tip is not original,doesn seem quite the right shape, as if wood was taken away then refitted with that blond bit..... think Greener used ebony or horn...at least on mine he did
shoot her in good health mate
cheers
franc

How about posting a thread with step-by-step instructions and pictures for doing one of those? I've got a few to do, a tutorial would be excellent.

Regards
Ken

Rhys: could you please send full size high resolution images of the 3 barrel segment by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net
The pics would make excellent demonstration images and thanks!

Hold that thought. I'll see what i can do.

Rhys95
James W Rosier, Clark Buildings,63 Bourke Street West ,Melbourne, Victoria, Australia; is listed in Graham Greener's book, "The Greener Story", as Greeners agent from 1888-1902.
Your gun is very similar to Greener's,"Far Killer Duck Gun", which sold for 12 pounds 12 Shillings, Stirling ,circa 1888.

Many thanks to Rhys who kindly sent excellent images!
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18015717

Breech-middle weld



Middle segment 3 Iron "Oxford"



Middle to muzzle segment weld

"Rhys95," according to "The Greener Story," authored by Graham Greener, if your fine W. W. Greener hammer-gun was indeed serial-numbered "38440" by them for purposes of attributing it to that gun-making firm, it was completed in 1890, as a reference to their proprietary ranges of serial numbers will indicate. There are two serial number ranges listed for the 1890 calendar year: (1) nos. 32741-33370, comprised of 630 guns and (2) nos. 38095-38803, the number range into which the "38440" serial number falls, contributed 709 guns to that year's total production for W. W. Greener. However, I do not think "38440" is a W. W. Greener serial number. I would believe it is instead that for James W. Rosier, Greener's Australian agent, whose legend is present on your gun's top-rib.

I deduce the "16190" stamped on the barrels' under-rib is the true proprietary serial number for W. W. Greener. It is possible that the barrels might have been made in the trade and bought-in by Greener for use with this pattern of gun, too, and thus may reflect the barrel-maker-to-the-trade's number; a common practice of the era. But because Greener's are known to have had their own capabilities at the time with respect to barrel-making, this thought can be discounted. Moreover, if we instead posit that W. W. Greener made the barrels along with all of the gun's other constituent parts, the under-rib's "16190" serial number provides us calendar year 1876 for the gun's manufacture, according to the aforementioned reference (1,500 guns were manufactured by them in 1876). That the underside of the damascus barrels subtly and secondarily evince the "W W G" (i.e. "W. W. Greener") maker's stamp somewhat proves my point as well. This would seem to mean that Rosier's name and his own serial number were intended by the parties to be preeminently on display to the prospective buyer / eventual owner and not that or the name of the actual gun-maker. Such private labeling was a common practice in the nineteenth century (and continues on to-day). A differing interpretation answering the conundrum of the two different serial number sets stamped on this gun would need to provide a more convincing explanation as to why both sets appear, and one that I am unaware of or have not contemplated.

Previously remarked by another correspondent is the cite: "1888-1902 James W. Rosier, Clarke Buildings, 63 Bourke Street West, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia" as is shown on page 164 in Graham Greener's comprehensive book, "The Greener Story," under "Appendix B Business Addresses of the Greener Gunmakers." In an immediately preceding paragraph, Mr. Greener further explains and cautions the reader that:

"W. W. Greener also had agents and addresses abroad. In some cases it has not been possible to find out exactly when these were first used, nor when they ceased to be employed. Dates have been indicated but the accuracy of these cannot be confirmed."

It is certainly possible that Rosier's initial business relationship with W. W. Greener began sometime much earlier than the inexact year of 1888. I would suggest that Rosier initially had numbers of guns made for him in the name of and with the serial numbering system for his private label by Greener's, just as he may have arranged with other gun-makers as well. Some time later, after it became advantageous for business, perhaps because of the ever increasing fame of Greener's gun-making firm (via their promotion of choke-boring and aided by a series of promotional sporting and gun books, etc.) and due to the superiority, first-quality and variety of their model line, to eventually import their guns fully inscribed and stamped with the W. W. Greener name and proprietary serial numbering system prominently displayed for all to see. Their successes then caused Rosier to become an agent for the gun-making firm. That is, Rosier may have begun the business association with private label goods manufactured by W. W. Greener and eventually moved on to become their Australian business agent when their branded guns had become more famous and thus more attractive in their own right to his retail buyers.

Therefore, in my opinion, the aforesaid 1876 manufacture date is the most logical and befitting one for your particular gun. To me, your hammer-gun has the wonderful appearance of a hammer-gun from that decade, as opposed to the slightly more refined appearance and mechanical attributes of the hammer-guns manufactured from the late 1880's through the 1890's. The use of a simple Westley Richards-type doll's-head top-rib extension that mates with a mortise atop the action body at the breech was also very widely used in the 1870's (Even my circa 1871-72 Charles Daly hammer-gun built around a Scott action employs it, though as here without a cross-bolt.). Although Greener's produced their innovative single top-bolt cross-bolt system starting in 1865, it was 1873 when they combined this with Purdey's-patented double under-bolts / lugs to create their justly famous "Triple Wedge-Fast" locking system. Because many later hammer-guns were subsequently fitted with "Triple Wedge-Fast" locking, the lack of your gun's incorporation of this improved system may additionally imply that it is not of a later vintage. Regardless, the W. W. Greener guns of whatever period and model and for whatever purpose made, employed the best materials and used the best designs of the period, and are finely fitted and finished. In their higher grades, they are the equal of 'any' gun of the period, including the so-called Golden Age of gun-making.

Having long attempted to locate and buy, here and abroad, 'antique' G 60 or 70 Crown Grade W. W. Greener guns in excellent condition (Greener's guns were 'used' and possess excellent handling qualities, whether employed afield or at the gun club) that were built on the self-acting ejector principle, facile princeps action without much success, I learned that my efforts have been mostly unsuccessful because these grades of gun by this maker are very rarely on offer, particularly in the U.S. My difficulties can perhaps be ascribed to owner perceptions of intrinsic value, as well as due to owner appreciation of the guns' many quality aspects, which taken together create no desire to sell.

These fine Greener guns, whether antique or modern, simply 'come alive' when taken afield, concerning which experience I can personally attest. The damascus barrels on your gun are good quality (If the barrel thicknesses allow, the unsightly exterior pits might be removed and the barrels re-struck.) and are interesting in terms of uniqueness and pattern. Making use of your gun's full potential and enjoying it for its intended purpose, however, is far and away more important than aesthetics. Admittedly, I am especially partial to and much prefer damascus barrels to all bland blacked-steel sets.

James W. Rosier, according to "Boothroyds' Revised Directory of British Gunmakers," was an agent for W. W. Greener in Australia. Boothroyds' listing reads: "Bourke Street West, Melbourne, agent for Greener." The "made for" top-rib inscription on your gun confirms the reported / recorded business association or arrangement.

Congratulations on finding and purchasing this fine W. W. Greener hammer-gun. Please enjoy your ownership to the fullest. With my


Regards to all,

Edwardian

Thanks all for your contributions and information. Edwardian I appreciate the time you have taken examining the serial numbers and Greener records. I probably should have mentioned there is a very small "J R" stamped next to the "16190" which makes me think that the "38440" would most likely be Greener's manufacture number.
If that is correct wouldn't it seem strange that a retailer would receive an almost finished gun with only the name to be engraved and not even using their own serial number?

That aside, I finally used it for the first time today with some Eley 28gram 2 & 1/2" fibre target shells and I noticed it was piercing the primers on the shells. I have experienced this before with a few guns intermittently however this consistently punctures the right hand primer and the left occasionally. I actually copped an eye full of primer powder and gas which passed around the firing pin!
Apart from that it fits and functions flawlessly so I am very much looking forward to take it out on the ducks this season.

Regards

"Rhys95," the "J R" stamp you mention is likely that of a Greener's in-house barrel-maker-finisher, and is the sort of identifier that provided a means of quality control over the constituent parts of the gun as it progressed through the stages of manufacture to the gun's final completion. This was a common practice for the historical period, and especially relevant to the productions of outworkers. Such personal identification marks were also stamped into the wooden or metal bits and pieces by in-house workmen for pride of workmanship reasons and as production inspection stamps. Some maker's initials and assorted stamps are avidly sought after by certain collectors, and in some instances can increase the value of the gun substantially.

The initials "J R," serial number "16190," and the "W W G" stamp for W. W. Greener combine to reinforce the suggestion that "16190" is indeed the true serial number that can be attributed to W. W. Greener. These three elements go together and tell their story, to wit: We are the true maker and these our proprietary indicia. Privately labeled guns of the period frequently employed the retailer's proprietary serial numbers. This private label serial numbering would have been a part of the labeling agreement between the actual manufacturer and the retailer requesting the privately labeled product.

I believe that you are correct in surmising that it is illogical for a complete, in-the-white gun made by some manufacturer to the specifications of a private labeler for that privately labeled gun not to evince the serial number of the private labeler along with other private labeling indicators, such as the name of the retailer. Therefore, we continue to believe that "38440" is a serial number series attributable to the retailer, Rosier.

Your alarming description of the condition of the cartridge primers upon firing your gun and the dangerous aftermath is indicative of a very serious problem needing address soonest possible. My guess would be that the problem arises from the firing pins, either they are too long, too sharp, have been nonprofessionally altered, or the pin retracting springs are worn or weakened and in need of replacement. You should cease all live-firing of your gun and take it to a gunsmith who is familiar with antique double guns. This must be done forthwith. Waiting and wondering why could be too costly to your health and irreplaceable body parts. Do not attempt to correct this problem yourself. Instead, please seek professional help, advice and correction immediately!


Regards,

Edwardian