doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Baker Paragon or Special Order??

dgb...no, thats not right...but you've helped me to date Baker 38...I'll explain...first Clines patent is 263 not 268...but if you look on page 2 of Clines patent, you will see that there are bridles present...that patent was submitted in March of 1903, and Bakers shotguns already had bridles on their locks...George Clines patent is unusual because although George was from Batavia, and his trigger was drawn on a Baker, there is no assignor (Baker)...BUT... many selective Cline triggers have been observed on Baker guns...unlike the Parkin brothers,also of Batavia, patented single trigger which has not been seen by anyone who can back their words with example..446,166 on the other hand is the patent issued to Hollenbeck for the safety interceptors that I have pointed out on Baker No.38...So...Baker No.38 was probably manufactured after July 1892, but before March 1903, as bridles were present by that point.
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DKatt...did you notice that the hammer stop on the lock [no38] I showed has been hammered completely off? It wasn't present when I opened the gun...If you want I can show both locks together so that the remaining hammer stop can be seen

Robert,
Thanks for the correction 263 is correct. I had assumed that was when the change had been made as it is the only pat. I can find for the locks, of course they could have been using it previously and the single trigger built around them. But the date is probably pretty close.
Also, it seems possible also that the hammer interceptors could be H. Allenders pat. # 303,411 of 1884.

dgb, how EXTREMELY observant of you...I am blown away...Until today, you are the only other researcher I have ever known of to even know of Allenders existence (except for advanced collector Mark Accurso). I have suspected for years that Emil Flues apprenticed under Allender, but I have no evidence other than circumstantial. Other than Allenders patent and some Wilkes Barre data, I have found very little on Heny Allender, so please say if you know anything about Henry.
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Here are a few more pics showing the hammer stops and the bridles from above

Yes, I did notice that on your pictures of May 18. Surpising to me as it is the left lock and many people that I know, shoot the right barrel more often, so it gets more wear.

Dave, I wonder if you and other readers are you able to view these patent drawings, or should I post a copy of the drawing for others to follow along more easily?

Robert,

I use google patents to look at the patents. The Allender conection is from Larry's patent book. I think he says that patent date shows up on some C grades. I'm curious if the other variations of Baker changes happened around the same time. I'm refering to the cocking mech, and barrel lug specifically. The earlier guns seem to have two studs from either side of the lug for stability, which seem absent on later guns. Do you suppose the change in the angle of the 'cocking rod' took place with the change in locks and lugs???

I also have a couple of Baker Gunner magazines from 1902 that show the bridled locks. I guess this would confirm that the locks were in use before Clines patent. Does anyone know if the locks are patented??

doublegunbum, are the two studs you referring to, the two lugs that are on both sides of the barrel lug? If they are, those are present on the 1896/1897 or Model D grade (hammer gun) and the Model C grade(box lock gun) along with the B grade and higher Bakers. The Leader and it's same class of brothers(Special,Black Beauty) did not have these lugs. You can obviously put the Leader style barrels on a two lugged gun, but not the other way around. It is not terribly uncommon to see a Batavia Leader, Special or Black Beauty barrels(no side lugs) on a "graded" (lugged) guns.

Robert,could you post those patent drawings?

Dave,
Try this for the patents.
303411 is Allenders for the safety blocks.
I like Hollenbecks 481327 for the cocking arangment.

http://www.google.com/patents

I guess I had assumed those lugs were an early/late feature and not a high grade/ low grade but that makes sense.

Thanks, those are very good to study and see. You sure can see the relationship.