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Forums10
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Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133 |
Interesting he said he has testified in court cases on Damascus guns. That would have records available.
If there have been recent court cases on Damascus guns failing I have never heard about them. Not to say it's impossible just you would think they were reported. Who would somebody sue, maker long out of business ?
Could it be another reporter caught fabricating facts ?
Boats Could be going after ammo makers . . . although US shotshells usually carry the warning that they're not to be used in Damascus guns. Concerning Roster and steel vs lead: To give him his due, I don't believe I've ever read him claiming that steel is better than lead. Or even as good. He has done a lot to demonstrate that steel is better than many naysayers would have us believe. At the same time, his research involving steel and pheasants (which probably needs to be updated--he used pretty anemic steel loads) revealed some issues that he hadn't observed with waterfowl. He is convinced that lead shot is probably going to be prohibited in the near future. I think he's wrong about that, given the current political climate and the likely linkage of any lead ban to an assault on gun rights in general. But he simply doesn't have the expertise in the field of vintage guns, proof, pressure etc that he does when it comes to steel and other varieties of nontoxic shot. Larry, In CA, we've been legislated to going lead free on all hunting by 2019, I believe. That pretty much kaboshes my .410 quail/chukar hunting here. It wasn't great hunting in CA, but it had its moments. I have some 20ga BSS guns that I can use for steel if I need to hunt here. Otherwise, I'll spend more time (and money) in neighboring states that allow lead. Chuck--I feel for you Californians. Unfortunately, hunters and shooters in CA are not a large enough minority to make the noise they would need to make to fend off the anti-lead movement. I'm sure it will happen other places too. But fortunately, not many places where there's really good upland hunting, because those places tend to have a far higher % of hunters than CA. Thus more likely to get the politicians' attention. Moves to expand nontox requirements have been shot down in MT, WI, IA, and SD. Maybe other places I'm unaware of. But we need to remain vigilant, because the anti-lead "environmentalists" will keep trying.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355 |
Welcome Nudge, and here you go:
The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal "Finding Out For Myself" series by Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust Vol 10, Issue 2, Summer 1999, Part 1, p. 9 Vol 10, Issue 4, Winter 1999, p. 21 - Destructive testing of Parker GH Damascus Vol 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005 - Destructive testing of Parker VH Vulcan Steel Vol 17, Issue 3, Autumn 2006, p. 12 - Destructive testing 8 Damascus doubles Vol 17, Issue 4, Winter 2006, p. 28 - Destructive testing 7 Damascus Vol 18, Issue 1, Spring 2007 - 1. Destructive testing on a Damascus barrel with thinned walls; calculated by O.D. - I.D., not measured 2. Destructive testing using various obstructions, including a 20g shell 3. Destructive testing using a shell loaded with 3 1/4 Drams by volume or 56 grains of Unique (similar to “Infallible”) with 1 1/4 oz. shot. The chamber burst with the first shot. The 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent load is 24 grains of “Infallible”. Vol 19, Issue 2, Summer 2008, p. 18 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 6 Twist Vol 20, Issue 3, Autumn 2009, p. 108 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 5 Twist “Bottom-Of-The-Barrel Wall-Hangers”
Total 28 vintage doubles/54 pattern welded barrels + 1 Fluid Steel Parker
A Parker GH with Damascus barrels and the Parker VH with Vulcan Steel barrels were the subjects of destructive studies in Vol. 10, Issue 4, Winter, 1999, "Finding Out For Myself" Part II and Vol. 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005, Part IX. Both guns were subjected to sequentially higher pressure loads at about 2,000 pounds/square inch (psi) increments. The GH testing started at 11,900 psi and one chamber ruptured at 29,620 psi. The VH started with a Proof Load of 18,560 psi. Both chambers bulged at 29,620 psi and ruptured at 31,620 psi. An as yet unpublished failure analysis and metallurgical study has been performed on both barrels by Ron Graham.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
But he neglects to tell you that the steel shot with its' better pattern percentage contains significantly less shot per ounce because of its' lesser density or specific gravity. In reality a lesser density in the shot mat'l results in more pellets per ounce. The fly in the ointment though is in order to maintain any semblance of killing power it is necessary to increase shot size by at least two sizes. Thus 1oz of #4 steel for instance would contain less shot than 1oz of lead #6. With this switch you still end up with a lesser number of less efficient pellets. 1oz of #6 steel would contain more pellets than 1oz of #6 lead, but would be considered as more of a replacement for #7˝ or #8 lead.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 603
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 603 |
I have only been shooting Damascus for about 30 years, so I am no expert . I am in the Securities business and I find that the Annuity bashers seem to be supported by the Mutual Fund companies and vice versa with the Mutual Fund bashers. Since Tom Is generally supported by the modern gun and shotshell manufacturers, it gives me the same thoughts of conflict. One of the leading duck hunting identities here is reputed to have had a container full of imported steel shells ready to sell even during discussions about lead's possible banning; he was all set to cash in once it happened... Our supposed peak body here, the SSAA, seems not so fussed about fighting restrictions such as mandatory range attendances and club memberships for firearms licence holders. Guess who gains monetarily from those range attendances and club memberships? If there's a buck to be turned - even at the expense of freedoms - someone'll put 'emselves there to turn it.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,401 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,401 Likes: 16 |
Walter c. Snyder
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 747 Likes: 24
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 747 Likes: 24 |
I believe Roster owns the patent on steel shot wads. No surprise that he would promote steel shells. His articles in Shooting Sportsman rarely interest me.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 11 |
Drew Hause,
Wow! Thank you for aggregating that! Those articles are a terriffic resource.
- Nudge
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 603
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 603 |
I believe Roster owns the patent on steel shot wads. No surprise that he would promote steel shells. His articles in Shooting Sportsman rarely interest me. Wow. I was always a little suss on his opinions and pseudo science, as well as those parroting it; it makes perfect sense now.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,470 Likes: 489
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,470 Likes: 489 |
In reality a lesser density in the shot mat'l results in more pellets per ounce.
Miller, you are correct of course, and that was a brain-fart on my part. A given volume of lead #6 shot as compared to steel #6 shot should be virtually identical in number because they are the same sized spheres, but certainly not in weight. At equal velocities, the lead shot will have significantly more foot lbs. of energy per pellet. Roster also claimed that steel shot which had the same kinetic energy as equal sized lead shot had greater killing power because it penetrated deeper. That seemed rather dubious and misleading too since the steel shot would have much less sectional density per pellet. If the steel and lead shot were of equal size, the steel shot would have to have a much higher velocity to have equal energy and it would not flatten any upon impact. But that is like saying that a full metal jacketed bullet has more killing power than an expanding bullet of equal kinetic energy just because it will likely penetrate deeper. He completely ignores the wound channel as a factor in killing. I guess he missed all the evidence of more crippling when waterfowl hunters were forced to change to steel. And I wonder which one is more likely to crack a tooth if you missed one while cleaning your game?
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Keith; You got it all right this time. I did calculate once sizes necessary to obtain equal sectional densities for steel comparable for lead & it was for the most part simply impractical to go to that large of shot for the given load vs game to be shot. Ballistic coefficient is of course the main factor in velocity retention but as all are spherical the BC is pretty much proportional to the SD. Obviously the reason steel has to be given a higher initial velocity is because it sheds it so much faster & we are primarily interested in retained velocity at point of contact. Muzzle velocity is of little consequence unless one is in the habit of shooting their game "At the Muzzle" of their gun. There is just no way steel is the equal of lead for shot.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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