doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Manufrance Ideal barrel construction

There are a few Ideal aficionados on the board, and I thought I'd get your input: It would appear that some later (post war) Ideals had monoblock barrels, quite a departure from the predominate demi, even on the lowest grades. Looks pretty clear in this photo:



The engraving on the barrels where the joint would be is of course the most obvious clue, another the break in the "plume." As Post Oak often says, "just when you think you know Ideals..."

There were two parts to this.
There was a "Robust-Ideal" low cost model first (in the 30s IIRC) and then the monoblock construction of the Robust was generalized in the 70s I believe.
I don't have my Mournetas handy, but it is well described in it.

Another option would be that the gun would have had issues along the way (such as being buried during WWII) and somebody sleeved it.
More info on the model would help.

I don't think that the "single digit grade" Ideals would ever have that "feature" from the factory.

Best regards,
WC-

Just having lunch right now on a break from house painting. Will check Mournetas tonight and see what I can find.

I think WC is on the right track.

OK, I am familiar with the stepped barrel, monoblock Robust.
Here's another one, represented by the seller as "like new." This ain't no Robust:

Here is a link to the gun:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAGNIFIQUE-FUSIL-MANUFRANCE-IDEAL-CAL12-item-2133233.html

Mine doesn't have mono-blocked barrels. It is not a high grade, an R-3, I think and built in the '20s...Geo

A former co-worker of mine had a Manufrance he called a Robust. I saw it one time & to the best of my recollection it was so marked. It had top lever opening & did not have the "Stepped" monoblock. I do want to think though that it had the smooth style of monoblock, but could be wrong on that. It was 16ga, very light weight, sunken rib & sling that rolled up into the butt stock. I was quite impressed with it. He is now deceased & I have not a clue as to where the gun went.

Here is an example of the stepped monoblock Robust with underlever:

They were also available, very commonly, with the less expensive top lever action:

Well let me see, it was in the early to mid 70's when I saw this Robust, so 40 years ago. Memory may have slipped a bit. Maybe it didn't have the top lever, but I distinctly remember it did not have the stepped barrels. It may not have been monoblocked at all, just can't say for positive. I do recall it as way nicer than the Robust model which was then currently being offered. This gun was stated to be an older Robust.

Mike, that's a model 375, made between 1975 and 1984. So extremely late in the production run. I'm looking through the Ideal book, practicing my French and seeing if I can find a date indicating when Manufrance adopted Pieper's barrel construction method for Ideals.

James

Edit to add....BTW, that is way overpriced IMHO. Or mine's a 10K 12 gauge.

That's a late production gun, victim of cost cutting measures...
The 375 was one of the highest grade towards the end IIRC.
WC-

Here's a late production Robust with out the stepped barrels, one of my duck guns



A little on the rough side but effective.




And a Costo labeled Ideal with stepped barrels

Since this thread has gotten the Manufrance owners out of the woodwork, here's a mid-grade Robust Model 226, 16 gauge, serial # 189139. Any help on date of mfg. would be appreciated. These guns are a dime a dozen on Naturabuy. Too bad there's not a hassle-free pipeline to get them here.

If it is in Mournetas' book on Ideals, I can't find it.

Would be interesting to know the model number of the gun you posted that is not in the ad. My guess would be that it too is a 375, supporting WC's contention that the use of mono block barrels is a result of cost cutting measures late in the history of Manufrance, as the enterprise was failing and while demand for SxS was at an all time low.

Ideal barrels are dovetailed and cross pinned, the genuine Demibloc system as invented by Henri Pieper.

Robust Barrels are monobloc, with the barrels inserted and fretted into the monobloc (cannons en frette) ie held by friction as well as solder.

ROBUST_IDEAL is a kind of hybrid between the Robust and the Ideal, having monobloc barrels, but not the "T" top extension. The top extension is from the Robust, flat with a flat bite.

The stepped monobloc was abandoned in later production in the Robust in favor of faired barrels.

The Ideal in the late catalogs, just before 1982, is shown in two models, the Deluxe and Prestige with monobloc barrels, though I have never seen one yet. Even though I have seen and handled hundreds of them I have yet to see two identical Ideals or any with monobloc barrels. The custom capacity of the workshop must have been staggering.

Shotgunlover, that is great information. Thank you. I have only seen those two late models of Ideals referred to numerically, as the 370 and 375. Can I assume the 375 is the Prestige you refer to?

And while we are on the subject of Ideals and you seem to have a degree of knowledge, do you know if Manufrance ever outsourced the engraving on the better grades or was it always done in house. One reason I ask is because the incredible diversity of style and pattern doesn't seem to fit with the idea of an in house program where, to some degree, conformity and convention might gain sway.

Canvasback,

Yes, the catalog shows the 370 Deluxe and the 375 Prestige.

I managed to get to Saint Etienne just before the start of the closures of the early 80s (driving my 1958 2CV). I got conflicting reports about engraving. What is evident though is that it must have been close to impossible to offer such a wide range of custom choices with only the staff engravers.

What is also evident is that most small gunmakers sourced parts from Manufrance, pretty much the same way the English sourced parts from Scott to finish to their specs and standards. The most used action (judging by the numbers and variations) was the Robust. Nine times out 10 when asking to see a "fusil artisanal" I was shown a custom finished Robust.

Talking with Herve Bruchet re the gunmaking business in Saint Etienne was interesting. His comment on it was "positively incestuous", in other words pretty much like any other small industrial city where workers and traders collaborate closely and "multi task".

Driving in Saint Etienne and tackling their bouleverd peripherique is unforgettable!

I now kick myself regularly because I was in St Etienne in the early 1980's. But it was before I has developed my fascination with SxS in general and French guns in particular.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge SGL.

Common sin my friend. I did not buy anything in St Etienne back then either.