those Rio bismuth are just the medicine in my old HD Winchester model 12......2 3/4 or the 3in.....or the 20ga loads in my 20ga model 12 for when I hunt along creeks where I can jump ducks or pheasant....they are to strong for my Elsies and I have lighter loads for them and my Fox guns, even though I think the Fox guns could handle these heavier loads.......wish they had some 16s for the price of those 20ga loads.....but for that price you cant go wrong with those 12 or 20ga loads if you have older guns that can handle them...
