doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com An accident waiting to happen?

if someone has a set of 10ga steel barrels laying around....this could still be a good deal.....

Information is useful. Much better it is available than keeping it 'secret' based on some fear of what someone might do with it.

I have a W&C Scott Premier hammergun chambered in 2 7/8" 10 ga. It is a two barrel set, original damascus barrels and a second barrel set in fluid steel made by HA Lindner.

I was able to research previous owners and even contact people who had known a long term prior owner in Kentucky. (Where I found it.) Reported that he used the shotgun for years with 3 1/2" mags (Yikes) in the unaltered original chambers. (I checked, the Mags will chamber and the gun will close.) Not known which barrel set he used....

I am NOT about to try this.... Yet the information is useful in a general way to understand how tough these old guns can be.

Many Damascus guns have passed 3 1/2" ten gauge nitro proof in the UK. Whether this L.C.Smith gun is safe to shoot depends entirely in the wall thickness of the chambers and the metal immediately forward. Of course, the proper ammunition would not be 3 1/2" magnum tens.

"Buck Hamlin as I recall, took an L C Smith Damascus hammer gun in 12ga & lengthened its chambers to 3�". This gun had badly pitted "Unusable" sewer pipe bbls. He started with the heaviest loads of Blue Dot listed in the manuals & went up from there. Finally quit when the gun simply refused to stay shut with the shot, but didn't succeed in blowing her up".

Buck actually used an early set of Lefever barrels in his experimental attempts to burst a Damascus tube; I don't remember the Grade gun these barrels came from, but it was a lower grade with a serial number in the teens as I recall. It was actually his strength testing of Damascus barrels that lead him to the point whereby he now refuses, and has for years and years, all mono-blocking requests (I own a Lefever he mono-blocked back in the mid-80's; one of the last mono-block jobs he did). And although I'd never do such a thing now (given the knowledge now available and not available then), in the past I've had Buck lengthen the chambers of 2 or 3 of my 12-bore Damascus SAC guns to 3"; then "proof" each modified barrel with 2 oz. 3" mags (SAC 12-bores came standard with 2 3/4" chambers). All bores were measured before and after testing; and fortunately, all survived two such loads thru each barrel with no failure or bore measurement changes. So it seems these old (high-quality) Damascus barrels are indeed tough, but having now made it to age 66; and having witnessed a significant portion of a man's left hand vaporized by a burst barrel, I've come to terms with my own mortality and am no longer the risk taker I was in my youth. It is entirely possible that the subject 10-bore Smith gun here could absorb load after load of heavy charged 10-bore 3 1/2" mags; but it is also entirely possible that it wouldn't. And were it my body parts in question, given that I can't know the future, I'd not take the chance. So let us hope the seller was ignorant about the manufacture date and load type engineered for this gun; otherwise let us hope that he never gets a complaint from the buyer, or that he has great liability insurance in a worse case senario.

Calling what was done to the barrels of your Lefever "monblocking" is inaccurate.
A monoblock is a single piece of steel, usually a forging, that is then machined to accept barrels. The components left after the barrels are sawed off of a gun for "sleeving" are of multiple pieces, under rib, upper rib, tube, fore end loop, etc, and cannot be considered a monoblock.

It is a completely incorrect use of the term.

I have a great deal of respect for 12 gauge, 3 1/2" magnum loads. I find them to be unpleasant to shoot, even in autoloading shotguns designed to fire them. I understand most barrel failures are due to a restriction, but, I would be very hesitant to use those loads in a gun not specifically designed for them.

I think the pictured gun might work for many years with low pressure loads being used in it. That said, I'm not going to buy it to find out.
There exist others without the modification (and screwy lettering on the barrels) that would be better using examples.

Best,
Ted

Ted;
You are 100% correct on the "MonoBlock", I've been Shouting that for years. The process was first patented by Henri Pieper. He simply called it a steel breech piece. I am not absolutely certain but think perhaps Beretta may have coined the term monoblock.

Topgun
Buck may well have done some heavy loading on more than one gun, but I distinctly recall a write up on it in the Lefever collectors newsletter several years ago in which he used an L C Smith. The only part I was uncertain about was as to whether it was hammer or hammerless. In spite of all the hoopla published by Mr Brown on his rotary bolt that matter of opening upon firing is a problem which has plagued quite a few guns so equipped over the years. In this case it only came into play when the loads far exceeded normal, but some rotary bolted guns have had problems with normal loads.

Gentlemen:
My sincere apologies for misuse of the term "MonoBlock"; my background is not that of a gunsmith, but rather that of a very interested shotgunner with a rabid case of the "double gun disease" and no talent for fine gunsmithing skills. All I can attest to is that the ribs and hanger lug were removed from the original Lefever Damascus barrels, the Damascus tubes then amputated forward of the barrel flats, new steel tubes were then fitted to the "breech piece", the ribs and hanger lug soldered to the new steel tubes, and barrels then finished and slow rust blued. The gun looks and shoots fantastic; and if I had the skills to post pics here, I'd certainly share same.

2-Piper:
Buck may very well have also used a set of Smith barrels in his experiments, I honestly don't know; but when I visited his shop back in the early 90's he showed me his Lefever "test gun". He'd stripped all the furniture and parts off the gun save for those actually required to make the gun function/fire; and its barrel bores were indeed pathetic. Buck also showed me the old tire out back of his shop to which he secured the gun for testing purposes; as well as the cedar tree he used for cover when pulling the lanyard attached to the gun's triggers. We discussed his experiments at length; and one result of those discussions was that I became convinced that a sound set of Damascus barrels could safely absorb proof level loads, and therefore should certainly be safe for use with low pressure smokeless loads. And as FYI, all these discussions took place long before I had the opportunity to read of Sherman Bell's experimentation with Damascus barrels in the DGJ. Had I known, or had this information in the mid-80's I'd have never had those fine old G Grade Lefever barrels sleeved/"mono-blocked"; as they were virtually mint. It is said we "live and learn but that G Grade Lefever is a story in itself, as it represented my double gun "awakening" so to speak; as prior to meeting a Florida collector, Garfield Beckstead, at that 1984 Gainesville, GA gun show and seeing my first ever Optimus Grade, I was convinced that only Parker guns were worthy of my attention. That Optimus opened my eyes to the fact that other domestic makers could, and did make fine guns also; and it wasn't long thereafter that I became quite bored with Parker guns to the point that I no longer owned one. As I visited with Mr. Beckstead and learned a little about the wonderful world of Lefever guns, he produced my G Grade from beneath his table; an absolutely wonderful gun with gorgeous and unusual English walnut furniture, mint Damascus barrels, 80% original colors, perished Silver's pad, and no forend. When that visit ended Mr. Beckstead had my $400 (a lot of cash for such a gun 30 plus years ago) and I had that Lefever with not the slightest idea I would ever find a forend; but my quest to get that Lefever operational again eventually lead me to New Mexico collector Gene Sandlin, who introduced me to Buck Hamlin; and with whom I've maintained a friendship ever since. Perhaps the most rewarding aspect of double gun collecting is the wonderful, talented, and fascinating people I've met as a result of this hobby; people I'd never have had the opportunity to meet and fellowship with otherwise. Got so much to be thankful for!

Topgun,
is Gene Sandlin still around? I miss chatting with him and his wife at the Colorado collectors show. One hell of a nice guy.
Steve

SKB:
I haven't visited with Gene in about 4 months (so I need to get on the stick and give him a call!); but based on the last few times I've spoken with Gene it's evident that age is taking it's toll. He sounds just as he always has, but seems to be having memory issues as he might ask the same question, or repeat one comment several times in a 15-20 minute conversation. Gene is a super nice individual and has been a tremendous source of Lefever knowledge and spiritual inspiration to me personally over these past many years; I'm sure he'd enjoy a visit from you, or any of the other forum members who might wish to call.

I know a guy (and no, it wasn't me) who, as a teenager, snuck his father's 10 ga Rem 1894 out of the house to duck hunt with the only 10 shells he could find, 3.5" steel loads. The gun was totally original, no lengthened chambers. It survived most of a box of said steel loads with no visible damage. I've handled the gun and its as tight as one could wish a 100 year old gun to be.

He did say however, that it kicked quite a bit.

Mergus