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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Bill: thanks for the clear images you posted, which have been an education for me at least. I would be VERY interested in every 1/2" wall thickness measurements starting at the breech to 6" or so and hope at some point you will be able to share the findings with us! Your nice gun obviously survived enough 20g boomers to put it off face smile
And BTW: I added some of your images here, and would be happy to attribute them to you if you'd send me your name by PM or email at revdoc2@cox.net
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18490292

Unlike Raimey the pirate wink

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Sidelock
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Ah, Dr. Hause, I haven't attained the rank of Pirate just yet so I'm a lowly Buccanner like Francis mentions.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
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Raimey, you need to start all your posts with a hearty ARRRGH! And we need to find you an eye patch, a parrot, and a wooden leg. Think of all the photos you could store in the leg.

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This really applies to North American ammunition manufacturers. I don't know how the history of long 20-gauge shells went in Europe.

The 3-inch Magnum 20-gauge was a mid-1950s item. The first commercial listing for a 3-inch magnum 20-gauge that I've found, was the Magnum Model 21 in the January 2, 1954, Winchester catalogue. However, there are no 3-inch 20-gauge shells listed in the January 2, 1954, Winchester Ammunition catalogue and price list, but they are in the January 2, 1954, Western Cartridge Co. catalogue and price list. The story goes that the Olin brothers and their buddies had been playing around with 3-inch 20-gauge Model 21s for some time before that. In the 1954 Western Cartridge Co. ammunition catalogue the 20-gauge 3-inch Mag. is offered with 1 1/8 ounce of Lubaloy #6 or 1 3/16 ounce of Lubaloy #4. The next year the 2 3/4 inch "magnum" shells were introduced with 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge. The 3-inch 20-gauge Mag. offerings remained the same through the 1959 price list. For 1960 the 3-inch 20-gauge magnum with 1 1/4 ounce of chilled shot was added to the offerings, while the Lubaloy loads were still 1 1/8 and 1 3/16. The Winchester/Western offerings in 3-inch 20-gauge shells remained the same thru 1968 where my old catalogues play out.

As we've discussed above, long shotgun shells have been around since the late 1890s. In the first 35 years of the 20th Century there were a plethora of shell lengths. In my 1903 UMC catalogue there were 12-gauge paper shells 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch. The 16-gauge was available 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. The 20-gauge was offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. The “standard” shell, 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge, and 2 ˝ inch 20-gauge carried slightly milder loads than the max offered in the 2 ľ inch shells, but the 2 7/8, 3-inch and longer shells just got more wadding, which many serious Pigeon shooters thought to be an advantage.

In the 20-gauge, the maximum loads offered in the "standard" 2 1/2 inch case were 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Ballistite or infallible pushing 7/8 ounce of shot. In the 2 3/4 inch and longer 20-gauge cases one could get 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20 grains of Ballistite or Infallible pushing that same 7/8 ounce of shot a bit faster.





These were the shells for the famous Widgeon Duck Club Parker Bros. 3-inch 20-gauge guns and the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co.'s No. 200 pump.

The only one of the ammunition companies I’ve found to offer long shells with their new progressive burning powder high velocity loads was Peters, and just like the old bulk or dense smokeless powder shells, the 2 7/8 and 3-inch Peters High Velocity shells didn’t carry a heavier payload, just more wadding –



From the 1927 Peters catalogue –



I believe much of the talk or the 3-inch 16-gauge shells come from Stadt's mentioning of them in conjunction with Winchester Model 21s. In the 1934 Winchester Catalog 89, Winchester offers their Leader shell in extra length hulls, both 2 7/8 and 3-inch in 12-, 16- and 20-gauges, but the maximum 16-gauge load offered in the Leader 16-gauge shell is 2 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder and 1 ounce of shot. Meanwhile in their progressive burning powder Super-Speed 16-gauge shells one could get 1 1/8 ounce of shot in either a 2 9/16 or 2 3/4 inch hull?!? Leader 3-inch 16-gauge shell --





FWIW, I’ve reviewed the production cards for the graded Ansley H. Fox 16-gauge guns and found a total of nine ordered chambered for 3-inch shells and one ordered chambered for 2 7/8 inch shells.

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Thank you Researcher. The dealer was at least recognizing the 1900 Olympic games with the gold "Grand Prix Paris 1900" on the barrels, and possibly the gun was made for a lady Pigeon shooter??
The original bore 15.8mm = .622"
Right 15.5mm = .610" or Modified
Left 15.2mm = .598" or Full



Léon de Lunden of Belgium; winner of the once and only demonstration sport of Live Pigeon shooting at the 1900 Paris Olympics; Grand Prix de Exposition Universalle de 1900. Appears to be using a hammer gun.



More information here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw


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Sidelock
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My 16ga Lefever I mentioned with the 3" chambers would fall within a 1907-1915 range. It carries a 1907 patent date & shows no sign of being an Ithaca assembled gun. I come much nearer believing this gun was so ordered that way when new than that it was re-chambered in the '30's era you mention re the model 21.
Some time in the 1970's I was at a gunshop when a gentleman brought in an empty fired hull to show. He had been hunting in the mountains of Franklin Co TN & found this hull. It was a Remington SP plastic 3" 16ga hull. Load marking was still readable on the side & it stated 3DE-1˝oz-#7˝ shot. Never saw any of these come on the market anywhere, anytime, but apparently Remington did experiment with them. In my opinion it's fortunate they didn't catch hold. If you need an ounce & a half of shot use a 12.


Miller/TN
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BillK Offline OP
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Gentlemen, I appreciate the plethora of excelent information and knowledge posted on my thread. I am learning a lot from your posts.
The information on the 75m chamber and the Grand Prix 1900 comments are most intriguing. Would love to learn more about this little gun.
Thank you, BillK

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