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Crusher, I have a system that values Brit and Continental guns. The three factors for value are Brand Value level, Original Quality grade, and Current Condition level. Take note that BV and OQ are separate and distinct factors; one does not necessarily imply the other. Hence the proverb, "Buy the gun (OQ), not the name (BV). Proverb or not, you will pay for BV when you buy; that is just part of the market value. Your wallet will be well served by understanding where the value comes from for the guns you buy. Your mind will be well served by buying those things which you really desire, but within your budget. Looks to me like you did well.

DDA

Great shotgun. I'll bet it has some grand stories. Shoot it often and sing it's praises loudly. It's a superb shotgun and better yet, it's yours.

In Burford, Oxfordshire there was a gunmaker named Henry Holland at around the same time as you gun may have been made. Accounts of the time say the Burford Holland�s turned out guns of very high quality. The Burford Henry Holland had, as far as we can tell, no family ties or trade relationship with the London Henry or Harris Holland. One wonders how many people have an Oxford Holland gun that they think was made by H. Holland in London!

This is what IGC has on the Burford Holland:

Henry Holland (Jnr) was recorded at High Street, Burford, Oxfordshire, from 1841 to 1852. These are the same dates that William Holland, possibly his brother, was recorded in Banbury, Oxfordshire. Henry was not recorded in Burford from 1853 to 1861 but was recorded again from 1862 to about 1874. A Henry Holland was recorded trading as a gun maker in 1868 in High Street, Faringdon, Berkshire; presumably this was the same Henry Holland, and the Faringdon business was run by his son, Thomas (it probably traded beyond 1868). Between about 1874 and about 1878 Henry made Thomas a partner in the business, which became Henry Holland & Son. In about 1885 Henry retired or died and Thomas took over the business re-naming it after himself. He appears to have closed in about 1901.

I can find no relevant 1861 patents or firearms patents numbered 61. However, my suspicion would be that CWL refers to Charles William Lancaster, who we know was a prolific inventor of firearms improvements. I'm wondering if your gun may have started out as an unusual base-fire, converted later to centre-fire, only because the illustration in Brown of a Lancaster base-fire mechanism shows remarkably similar hammers to your gun.

Tim

Not a chance! They just happen to be the only old shells I have on hand so I figured they would look good in the picture. I would think they would be a good deal higher pressure!

That would be a disappointment to think you had a Harris Holland and yet have someone elses! The rib is marked "H.Holland 98 New Bond St London" which was Harris ' s address and I think H&H's current address. And it's the first time I've seen a shootable Holland within my budget. My wife said I was like a kid waiting for Christmas morning as I waited for it to arrive... ah, the way these old doubles makes us feel! My Ugartechea just never made me that excited to own it.

It could be Charles William Lancaster patent with the 61 being the Patent use number. Does it have slide and tilt barrels when opening?

You say it has 2 3/4" chambers. It would not have been made as such so has it been lengthened and then re-submitted for nitro proof at some time? Nice gun. Lagopus.....

It does not slide at all, just tips down like a top lever one would.

It is also interesting, and could point to the base fire mentioned above, that the firing pins (I think that's still the pins) comes in contact at the very bottom of the hammers

Yes, good thinking. If you can obtain a copy of Crudgington & Baker's book The British Shotgun Volume 1 Page 33 shows a very similar gun made by Lancaster. It must be remembered that Harris Holland did not make shotguns at that time but retailed them from his tobacconists shop business. He moved to 98, New Bond Street and at the time Lancaster inhabited number 151 New Bond Street. I would be of the opinion that Lancaster made your gun. Lancaster at that time was considered one of the best barrel makers in London. I note that your gun was only ever proved for black powder and if the chambers are indeed 2 3/4" then they will have been lengthened at some time. Be cautious if this is case as they may have been weakened. Lagopus.....

I realized the black powder, but I didn't realize that the chambers would have shorter originally. That's a bummer! I'm thinking the 3000 psi loads should be good, but I'll be careful

I should just have it well checked and appraised. It's surprising how many Damascus barrel guns will happily stand re-proof to nitro and chambers lengthened. I had a single barrel gun with Damascus barrels that was a very early example. It had started life as a black powder proof 16 bore then had the barrels lapped out at some stage to remove pits and actually re-chambered to a 12 bore and then passed nitro proof. It's nice gun and a good example of its kind. Why not just load black powder ammo? Much more fun than nitro; except more trouble to clean afterwards. After all, guns are for shooting. Lagopus.....