doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Info Wanted On Old Stevens Double

I recently bought a 1914 Riverside Arms/Stevens SxS 12 gauge hammer gun. I've read the company history and such, and know that the barrels aren't damascus. The chambers are supposed to be 2 3/4", the owner was adamant that they were, but I won't know for sure until I receive it. Does anyone know what grade of steel was used to make these? What a common smokeless loading pressure was at the time? IF, and only IF it proves to be in good enough shape, would running 1 1/8oz trap loads through it seem reasonable?

The J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. introduced their lower priced line of Riverside Arms Co. doubles, designed by G.S. Lewis, in their last catalog, General Catalog No. 54, circa 1915. The Lewis designed hammerless gun was the No. 315 and the hammer gun the No. 215 --



The company was taken over by New England Westinghouse for war production for The Great War and became J. Stevens Arms Co. After The Great War J. Stevens Arms Co. became a wholly owned subsidiary of Savage Arms Corp. The Riverside Arms Co. No. 215 remained in the companies offerings to 1928 --



By 1929, J. Stevens Arms Co. dropped the Riverside Arms Co. name, and their lower priced line became Springfield Arms Co. --



The last appearance of the No. 215 was on the June 21, 1932, J. Stevens Arms Co. price list.

At the time the No. 215 was introduced, the heaviest 12-gauge loads our North American ammunition manufacturers offered was 1 1/4 ounces of shot pushed by 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite --





These loads could be had in 2 3/4 inch or longer cases. There were lots of lighter loads offered, but the North American Nimrod has always gravitated towards the heaviest loads possible!! According to some old DuPont shotgun powder booklets in my collection, these loads were quite high pressure, 11700 pounds for the 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder and 12600 pounds for the 28-grains of Ballistite. When progressive burning smokeless powders developed during The Great War began being applied to shotgun shells, Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X loadings leading the way, that 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge payload could be launched at a significantly higher velocity and lower pressures, DuPont claiming 9600 pounds for their DuPont Oval --



From about 1907 onwards the heaviest loads the companies were offering in the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shell were 1 1/8 ounce.

Sounds like a recipe for problems. For the wood certainly, but for the action as well. I'd say that this gun falls into the Vintage category, meaning suitable loads would be comparable to the Black Powder or slower burning smokeless loads it was probably designed for. Especially if you're intending to run a lot of rounds through it.

Merely my opinion, I'm sure others will differ...

So as to not repeat ourselves

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=435315

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=435320&p=3537132#p3537132

I'm not too concerned about the wood.....it has none. I'm going to have to make a new stock for it, no big deal.

Thanks a lot, great info.

MS, be sure you understand that shot charge is not a substitute for known pressure. You need loads of both light (3/4 to 7/8 oz) shot charge and low pressure (say, sub 7000 psi). Such loads can be purchased from vendors such as RST or made up from handloading data. Low recoil (velocity and shot charge) for you and the wood and low pressure for the metal.

Enjoy.

DDA

Interesting about the high pressure loads prior to the appearance of the Super-X. But then SAAMI did not exist prior to WWI, so there were no voluntary industry standards for proof and service pressure. But it's always been my understanding--reinforced by various contemporary sources--that the Super-X actually INCREASED pressure with its 3 3/4 DE/1 1/4 oz load. The result being that Ithaca replaced the Flues with the stronger NID design, and Hunter Arms brought out the reinforced Long Range Wildfowl and Fox the Super Fox for those who were likely to be shooting a steady diet of those new loads at waterfowl.

Also interesting to note that all those pressure figures from before WWI would actually be LUP, not psi--which means they're even higher than the numbers listed, when comparing to modern loads.

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer "Super-X The Long Range Load" by Capt. Chas. Askins, the 12g. duck load is described as 38 1/2 grains or 3 1/2 dram with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps and a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or just below the current SAAMI 12g maximum of 11,500 psi.



BUT by 1900 1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. Dense Smokeless shells were widely available, and generated (and estimated from period publications to transducer numbers) 9500 - 10,500 psi. 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. loads used Bulk Smokeless with about the same pressures.

larry;
I think you are totally confusing "High Pressure" with "High Back Thrust". What these guns you mentioned were Beefing up for was the higher ballistics of a heavy shot load at a higher velocity, not necessarily meaning a higher pressure.
3� drams of bulk smokeless or 28 grains of Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1� oz of shot were not low pressure loads.
True these weren't the "Normal" but they may have been used far more often than we tend to imagine.
Max peak pressure is simply not the whole story in internal shotgun ballistics. 1 oz of shot @1 200 FPS with 10K PSI simply does not stress the actin as much as 1� oz @1300 fps with 9K psi, even though the pressure is lower for the heavier load.
Drew;
While in agreement with your figures loads of those days were found recommended with a 3� DE of dense powders with 1� oz of shot. Since the same powders were used obviously the pressure would have been higher than that cited for the 3�DE-1 1/8 oz load. The 1913 Lefever Arms Co catalog shows those loads of 28 grains Infallible or Ballistite with 1� oz shot, same as Rocketman quoted, as recommended loads (Steel, Twist or Damascus, no distinction being made). The 3� DE of these powders was 26 grains. my understanding is the Infallible & unique are essentially identical powders, I don't know why it was marketed under both names.