doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com is this monogram familiar to anyone?

not manton "stanton"

Lee S., thanks for taking the time to look at the info. I just wanted to correct a few minor details. The locks are Stanton locks as opposed to Manton, and the initials are W.B.H. as confirmed by the Lancaster County Historical Society. I thought it to be an L as well, but if you change the script on any document in Word, it is an Old English Scroll H.

I have also included a discovery I made no more then an hour ago. Within the Rose Engraving pictured which is located on the underside of the gun slightly off center to the right of where his monogram would typically be,..... is his monogram. Hidden from plain view but also prominently displayed for the knowledgeable to see and appreciate. <a href="http://s328.photobucket.com/user/ceshambaugh/media/ejc2.png_zpsc2nqd0cn.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l335/ceshambaugh/ejc2.png_zpsc2nqd0cn.jpeg" border="0" alt="ejc hidden in plain view photo ejc2.png_zpsc2nqd0cn.jpeg"/></a> I understand the skepticism and wise cracks, I get them from my wife and kids every day. But that skepticism also lets treasures like these slip through your hands and get lost in the shuffle. I know what I have now, now I need to find someone that knows their stuff to authenticate it. The following in an excerpt from an article called "Show Me The Proof".....If it passed satisfactorily it is was proof marked in a certain location. This location is dependent on the customer but is usually somewhere visible on the barrel or above the chamber. With the �Bespoke� guns the practice is to mark them on the underside of the chamber, concealed within the stock (these guns are usually listed at &#8356;60,000 and up and are custom made for an individual shooter). A difference between the London and Birmingham Proof Houses is that London traditionally proof marks on the right side of a gun, and Birmingham on the left.....It has been my contention from the onset that this is a "Bespoke" gun. The initials on the rib do not identify the maker, they identify who the gun was made for and was a common practice for the time. Sorry for the grainy photo. I have included a clear picture, mainly of the area on the gun from which it came...between the lugs. If no one is asking themselves "why" it was placed in such an obscure area, that would explain how it slipped through the hands of a couple generations and ended up at a an Amish gun auction and sold for $180. Why would someone create such a unique and beautiful gun and not take credit for it?... unless requested by the customer, which was often the case. The maker then would hide his mark somewhere on the gun, in this case between the lugs.<a href="http://s328.photobucket.com/user/ceshambaugh/media/ejc1_zpsvckm74ch.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l335/ceshambaugh/ejc1_zpsvckm74ch.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo ejc1_zpsvckm74ch.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s328.photobucket.com/user/ceshambaugh/media/ejc3.png_zpsqyyjepjq.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l335/ceshambaugh/ejc3.png_zpsqyyjepjq.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo ejc3.png_zpsqyyjepjq.jpeg"/></a>
<a href="http://s328.photobucket.com/user/ceshambaugh/media/c9_zpsj9hyp7sr.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l335/ceshambaugh/c9_zpsj9hyp7sr.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo c9_zpsj9hyp7sr.jpg"/></a> I must say, aside from a few thoughtful objective points of view, folks are ready to discount any well thought out and researched hypothesis without evidence or justification of their own. I did not arrive at this conclusion in a day, a month or even a year. but it did take that long asking "why" to arrive at the answer. I was directed here by folks at Churchill who said I would find the experts here. The shroud of Turin and "Haven't we covered this" don't arrive at answers to the question why.

I think you are getting a lot of skepticism and wise cracks because the photos you are showing us are more fuzzy and show less than the best photos of Bigfoot and Nessie.

Now we are supposed to ID the gun from some mysterious "monogram" hidden within a rose. If there are initials there, the photo's don't do it justice. Is there something more there than just an indent in the engraving? If there is, it's not coming through well enough to see anything.

Is the EJC supposed to be within that small indent on the right side of the rose's center?

I Googled Churchill's monogram and came up with two examples from recent James D Julia auctions. I don't see a resemblance, but maybe that is not what you're comparing to?

[img]http://s304.photobucket.com/user/djangof...?sort=3&o=0[/img]

The monogram seems to have evolved over time. The ejc seen on the bottom of his best guns has the E inside the C and actually forms the outline of the owl. Aside from the trigger guard, this gun looks very much like a custom hammer gun that Churchill would have made in the early years prior to Robert churchill taking over and modernizing the operation in the sense that different "models" were created and the E.J.Churchill brand was promoted. If you go on James D'Julia or Google E.j. churchill hammer guns you will see guns that are very similar and identical in many ways. I understand the hammer guns were rare but custom guns were Churchill's main source of business in early years (1890's) and custom guns made for people in united States was common for him. Also common for bespoke gun to be absent VISIBLE proof marks and or makers mark if so requested by the customer. If you look at the grainy picture I contend is the Genesis of his monogram You will see the E encompassing the C and the J as opposed to the monogram you see in which the E forms the owl. In my picture, keep in mind this is between the lugs and is worn, the E.J.and c are all there and so is the owl, but right side of owls head created by the foot of the J.. Also if you looked at the Rose engraving, there is clearly an ejc monogram hidden in it as well as a beautiful head of a pigeon. I could not see the pigeon at first but it is apparent. The J is intentional and borders it's beak which is black. This engraving is located where he ordinarily would have put his monogram. Also, would the A.S. initials beside the serial number represent Agar Street? The opening mechanism I feel goes back to John H. Hall patent in the early 1800s. I believe the guns owner was William B. Hall of Lancaster PA who also had patented improvements for breech opening shotguns. Trying to connect him to John H. Hall.

Hilarious! I can't stop laughing!

Joe