doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Iron, Steel & Alloy Staining

An added note I'll include about Washington barrels. There is an obvious lack of visible inclusions in the Wrought Iron. In general, they usually color fault-free. It appears that this may be due to the higher steel content of the tubes. This also may explain why the Riband welds color dark instead of white. DocDrew, have you tensile tested a Washington section? Scrap Washington tubes are hard to come by, but I'd hypothesize that they may be stronger due to the higher steel content.

It's possible that they may have been developed not only for their looks, but to provide stronger tubes as dense smokeless powders became more popular.

Regards
Ken

That is correct, Craig. The more wrought iron is worked, the more the silica content is dispersed and even worked out of the iron. Continually piling, welding and drawing out of wrought iron can bring it to nearly pure iron. In old gun barrels that were made of just wrought iron and scarf welded along their lengths, the silica strings are seldom visible. I believe these barrels were made of wrought iron that had been extensively worked before the iron was used to make the barrel.

I think the wrought iron used for damascus barrels was fairly high in silica content when it was first stacked into the billet. But after welding of the billet, drawing it out into small rods, twisting of the rods, welding the rods into a riband and welding of the barrel tube, a lot of the silica is removed and/or dispersed. I am certain that the high initial silica content was intentional, to aid all of the forge welding that was to ensue. But the barrel makers knew that the silica would be reduced and dispersed by the time the barrel forging was completed.



Ken, I noticed your comment on pre-etching from another thread. You may want to proceed with caution on etching the wrought samples that I sent you. I expect that if you subject them to a five minute etch, you will wind up with a coarse stringy looking surface. Actually, I doubt that an initial etch is necessary on the wrought samples or the 1002 steel, unless it serves to open the grain to accept the rusting acid.

That just makes so much sense. Almost a self fluxing weld with the silica.
I use borax to forge weld & it is the first thing to splash out of the join & fly in all directions. Go hot enough & hard enough & there is definitely none left in the joint.
Those boys really knew their jobs.
O.M

The steel industry in Belgium is changing at this point. They have contracts to build ships. In a few cases, men of war. Also the impact of WWI on the industry was showing. No doubt the changes in powder influenced a small part of the steel industry, barrels for small arms, but not nearly the financial influence of ship building.

Pete

Ken: I've only tested 3 Iron Crolle, Twist, Damascus-Twist, and a single 4 Iron Crolle segment. Without giving away all the good stuff the tensile strength was remarkably consistent at about 54,000 psi. That is just more than 1/2 the tensile strength of lowly Hunter Arms Armor steel.

BTW: It is my opinion that Etoile, "Washington", and Chain patterns use similar lopins/methodology. Check out the Remington 1894 barrels at the beginning here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18015717

and this very odd Smith barrel



I understand Bro. Steve is working on a Chain pattern barrel

This is fascinating. My thanks to Doc, Steve and all of you who have contributed expertise and insight to this issue.

Regarding the silica ......... I remember my Grandad telling me about a blacksmith shop that was here on our farm in the early 1900s. The river swamp was being logged and the huge virgin logs were brought out of the swamp and up on the hill by mules and what was called a log cart. It had a big axle under it, likely wrought iron. Grandaddy told of watching the 'smith weld those broken axles back together using white sand as flux. Isn't sand primarily silica?

SRH

Magnificent. Be aware, that pic of the Husqvarna set was only taken midprocess, I've just lacquered it, and will post a pic when totally done.

Regards
Ken

I use anhydrous borax in some of my forge welding work. However, I avoid using flux as much as possible. Flux creates the possibility of flux entrapment in a weld. My time making damascus is too precious to risk flaws in the steel. My steel pieces for damascus are always ground clean when stacked in a billet. After making a weld, I let the billet cool and then cut it up and grind the weld surfaces clean again before restacking. If I use anything at all for a �flux�, I use kerosene.



Sand or ground glass was often used as a flux. It works quite well, however it requires very high heat to melt. Around 2,600F degrees. Wrought iron can stand these high temperatures, but modern high carbon steel cannot. We weld modern steel at around 2,300F degrees. Most of today�s damascus smiths use propane forges. Propane forges struggle to reach 2,600 degrees. Coal forges can reach 3,000F.



Etoile and Washington share similarities. But, chain pattern is vastly different. Chain pattern is very complex in how the lopin/billet is assembled. A hint to its complexity; there are six elements that create the chain links, organized around the four sides of the billet.
I�m certain that the old damascus experts were very good at creating new patterns. But chain is so complex, that I wonder if they actually knew how the pattern would turn out in the finished barrels. I don�t know what they were trying to make with that billet arrangement. But, it wouldn�t surprise me if they looked at a barrel made from this billet arrangement and then said; �Hey, it looks like a chain!�



A cool pattern indeed! Laying up a billet to create the little square elements would take some effort. But, this really isn�t a complicated pattern to make. I will add this photo to the ones that you already sent to me. I am hoping to publish a book on damascus barrel patterns, describing how each of them were made. One of my reasons for working out how to make chain pattern, is to affirm my knowledge on sorting out damascus patterns. If I can�t make it, how can I state that I understand how it is made?



I am currently working on chain pattern, however it is first to be used to make a knife blade. As soon as I post this reply, I will be going out to the shop to continue my work on it. I am very interested in making a chain pattern barrel and have enough of this billet left to do so. But as a businessman, I have to justify the cost. There�s no point in making a barrel, unless you build an entire gun to install it on and shoot it. That is an expensive proposition. I still have the piece that I made, using the first damascus barrel that I made. Despite all of the attention and publicity that this piece has received, I have found no buyer for it. I�m trying to make a living from my work and cannot justify making expensive pieces that few have the funds to purchase. Without a customer to purchase, my work to actually make damascus barrels could cease.

Keep at it brother! And many here certainly appreciate your efforts, starting with figuring out the lopin.

Previously posted, but relevant. Top: Washington or American Flag Left: Double 81 Bernard Middle: Extra-Fine Crolle Right: Chain



Of course how the lopin became the finished pattern is the hard part

And there were multiple patterns referred to as Etoile, Washington, and Chain or Chainette

This is the sample display of Joseph Juleinond de Nessonvaux

Interesting that the Chain segment appears with the Corche and Legia



Etoile and Washington variants



Desire Mineur, of Prayon, Liege, claimed exclusive rights to "Chain-pattern" damascus in 1904, and the process was no doubt a carefully controlled secret

Another interesting Chain pattern by LePage, with prominent 'Stars'



The creativity and artistry still astounds me!!

Germain I hope. From the 1933 "Modern Gunsmithing" by Clyde Baker. (A delightful book really.) Chapter 7, under sub-heading "A FEW SHOP KINKS", he states: "To distinguish between iron and steel, file the surface bright and apply a drop of pure nitric acid. After a minute or two, wash off with water. On wrought iron, the spot will be a pale ash gray; on steel a brownish black, and on cast iron a deep black."

As an aside, while I do not own anything with Damascus barrels, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about the restorations and seeing the results can take one's breath away.