doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Center of Balance (CoB) on 16/20 Fox

Thanks, Steven .........for the wealth of information you have published over the years that most of us who read you would never have attained. There are many here who have great admiration and respect for your gunmaking abilities, myself included. But, as for me, not so much your lack of forbearance and ability to disagree without insulting.

Don has never claimed to have broken any new ground, AFAIK, concerning gun handling characteristics. What he has done, with his "whirly gig", is quantified handling characteristics and created a data base. When used properly it can help us mere mortals who like the way a particular gun handles, and who need some guidance in being able to find another that handles nearly the same way. I know now, because of Don's patience in helping me understand it, that a gun does not have to weigh the same, have the same length barrels, or even be the same gauge to do so. A .410 can handle almost identically to a 12 ga. game gun ...... if the weight is in the right place(s).

No thanks, Steven ..........for your condescension. It does not become a man of your great talent and knowledge.

And, FWIW, I'm another who doesn't worship at the MM altar.

SRH

I enjoyed reading MM, but after taking too much to heart the writings of Jack O'Connor and almost getting turned into bear scat because I viewed them as gospel or near gospel anyways all writers are just fiction writers until I prove otherwise. I like fiction and more so with good pictures but until you know it is real it is just words written to make a living. Facts are fun but subject to interpretation.

AM, immediate apology for giving of offense. It was not intended. I have reread my posts and realize that I let irritation into the tone of my words. Please, no offense meant. See below for some further explaination; facts, thoughts, and emotions.



DDA

My apology to you, Don, for my statement that I did not know of any "new ground" you had broken. In hindsight, that reads like a slight, concerning your work, and I certainly did not mean it in that way at all. I did not realize Garwood had not addressed mounted swing effort.

SRH

Hi Don:

Garwood's method actually yields a true MOI (about the center of balance). I have assumed yours would too. And that if you commandeered Dr. Who's Taurus and went back in time along with your "whirly gig" and measured MOIs with Garwood that you would get the same (within uncertainty) answer for the same gun.

Is that how you see it?

I got the part that you calculate the MOI about the buttplate ("swing effort") using the measured MOI about the COB.

One fact that I know for certain is that until I buy a gun the MOI or COB or LOP or DAC is perfect and I can shoot it well without effort. Once bought it does not stay the same. While I like reading about attempts to explain the what or why of gun dynamics I think we all understand there is a lot of subjectivity to it. Your testing gives insight and helps explain things but guns are like kids. Each slightly different for some reason.

Oh yeah.

This conversation definitely fits in with those discussions on chokes, choke performance, shot size selection, and guns with large or small DAHs.

But the data and the conversation still interest me.

Do you think George Digweed worries about COB CG and MOI?

Just learn to shoot.

Nope.

I bet he picks up a gun and mounts it and knows by feel whether he likes it or not.

Of course he is taking a non numerical measurement of those values and comparing it to his usual gun.

Bless you Joe. Yes, I will learn to shoot. And I think George Digweed thinks about everything, then closes it out, and then focuses and shoots.




The point of the initial question is about where the CoB should fall on this given gun. It is a purely subjective and speculative question.

The gun has been restocked and I believe the stocking might have added 5-6 ounces or so to the gun.

The gun has three weight barrels, other three weight barreled guns weigh in the 6lbs 8oz or so range, not 6lb 13oz range it currently sits at. Yet the gun balances where most of us normally think it should, on the hinge pin. Minor experiments at adding 5-6 ounces in the range of where the opposite weight falls shows it might have been 3/4 inches in front of the hinge pin if my theory is correct that the restocking changed it.

My research has shown me that Fox did custom guns with CoB in front of the hinge pin by as much a 1 inch (possibly more) so it is within the range of probability even a Sterlingworth could have been so built (this one was built with at least two barrels. I have written for a factory letter so we will see if there is anything in the old files. It is likely that those details if they existed will not be there.

I agree with what others have posted about shooting it for awhile to determine if the CoB agrees with me or not before altering. That the actual feel of the gun is more important than a particular CoB point.

I further agree that the CoB in relation to the trigger hand is more important than the hinge pin, but I caveat that statement with the added observation that it also depends on where one habitually places their hand on the forend. Ultimately as pointed out by Rocketman it is preference.

This gun is only a fowl weather back-up as I could not resist the three barrel set and I always regretted selling my Fox years ago. The questions about this gun and CoB are esoteric and part of what I do on every gun which is to make every observation possible and know all I can figure about them.