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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
My apology to you, Don, for my statement that I did not know of any "new ground" you had broken. In hindsight, that reads like a slight, concerning your work, and I certainly did not mean it in that way at all. I did not realize Garwood had not addressed mounted swing effort.
SRH Stan, no offense taken in any form or fashion. Far as I know, I was first to calculate MOI at butt (mounted swing effort). Also, far as I know, I was first to present a handling "fingerprint" for individual guns by grouping weight-balance-unmounted swing effort-mounted swing effort-(sometimes) half weight radius. I surely don't claim others wouldn't have known how (this is pretty standard engineering stuff) to do it . Frankly, I care little about being first. I do care that people have truth in front of them and do not have to depend on oft repeated statements that lack a science foundation. I do not gladly suffer the part/non-truths of statements based on lack of objective information. I'm very glad to have worked with you on understanding gun handling and will be glad to do so in the future. DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
Hi Don:
Garwood's method actually yields a true MOI (about the center of balance). I have assumed yours would too. And that if you commandeered Dr. Who's Taurus and went back in time along with your "whirly gig" and measured MOIs with Garwood that you would get the same (within uncertainty) answer for the same gun.
Is that how you see it? Yes, certainly. Nice summary.
I got the part that you calculate the MOI about the buttplate ("swing effort") using the measured MOI about the COB.
Last edited by Rocketman; 06/28/16 09:58 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
KY, shooters change, guns don't. I hope someone(s) come up with better explanations of how/why/when/where humans change.
Analogies of "honeymoons" with guns is a little light on utility for me.
DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
Do you think George Digweed worries about COB CG and MOI? At least intuitively, yes. I expect Digweed knows within a gnats whisker as to when weight-balance--swing efforts suit him.
Just learn to shoot. Good advice easier done with a gun that fits; both for stock and handling.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
The point of the initial question is about where the CoB should fall on this given gun. It is a purely subjective and speculative question. And the answer is, " Depends on who will be shooting the gun and his/her personal preference."
The gun has been restocked and I believe the stocking might have added 5-6 ounces or so to the gun.
The gun has three weight barrels, other three weight barreled guns weigh in the 6lbs 8oz or so range, not 6lb 13oz range it currently sits at. Yet the gun balances where most of us normally think it should, on the hinge pin. Minor experiments at adding 5-6 ounces in the range of where the opposite weight falls shows it might have been 3/4 inches in front of the hinge pin if my theory is correct that the restocking changed it. Sounds reasonable except why "should" the balance be at or near the hinge pin?
My research has shown me that Fox did custom guns with CoB in front of the hinge pin by as much a 1 inch (possibly more) so it is within the range of probability even a Sterlingworth could have been so built (this one was built with at least two barrels. I have written for a factory letter so we will see if there is anything in the old files. It is likely that those details if they existed will not be there. Doubt the gun ever had a balance spec.
I agree with what others have posted about shooting it for awhile to determine if the CoB agrees with me or not before altering. That the actual feel of the gun is more important than a particular CoB point. Yes, well said.
I further agree that the CoB in relation to the trigger hand is more important than the hinge pin, but I caveat that statement with the added observation that it also depends on where one habitually places their hand on the forend. Ultimately as pointed out by Rocketman it is preference. Yes, you understand! There is no "where it should be" until we know who is shooting.
This gun is only a fowl weather back-up as I could not resist the three barrel set and I always regretted selling my Fox years ago. The questions about this gun and CoB are esoteric and part of what I do on every gun which is to make every observation possible and know all I can figure about them. A very fine practice.
All commentary offered in the hope of helping advance truth and understanding. DDA
Last edited by Rocketman; 06/28/16 10:29 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,429 Likes: 35
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,429 Likes: 35 |
Nope.
I bet he picks up a gun and mounts it and knows by feel whether he likes it or not.
Of course he is taking a non numerical measurement of those values and comparing it to his usual gun. Just like Michael McIntosh did every time I shot with him. From a competition O/U, to a cast-on Dickson, to a custom Fox to what ever anyone handed him. Within a few shots he was breaking birds with each gun. I wonder how the MOI measurer shoots with a variety of different guns. Also, I wonder about the OP and how three different barrel configuration could possibly balance at the same point? at three different weights? Highly unlikely... BTW: I was never condescending...
Last edited by SDH-MT; 06/28/16 11:52 PM. Reason: edit
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
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Also, I wonder about the OP and how three different barrel configuration could possibly balance at the same point? at three different weights? Highly unlikely...
Balance is a matter of weight distribution. Take a round bar of uniform diameter, it will balance in the middle. Cut a uniform taper on each end & change the length a bit, it will balance in the middle. Add a ball on each end of equal weight, it will balance in the middle. Thus three lengths, three weights but they all balance at the same point. They won't handle identically.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 373 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 373 Likes: 7 |
2-piper is correct. I had one of the first Ceasar Guerini 3-barrel smallbore sets in the country. At that time you could only get the .410 with 30" barrels while the 20 and 28 gauge had 32" barrels. All 3 barrel/forend sets weighed within one ounce of each other. You couldn't tell if the 20 or 28 gauge barrels were on the gun as they balanced to the same point and moved the same when shooting. They were wonderful. The .410, however, balanced almost 3" farther back! This was due to all the metal in the monoblock to make it match the receiver. The gun would have worked better if the .410 barrels were heavier and balanced similar to the other two. I sold the CG as I never could shoot it with the .410 barrels.
I have a 20/28 Beretta o/u and the 28 gauge barrels/forend are 6 ounces heavier, but they balance at the same point as the 20 gauge. I shoot them both very well.
Perazzi are the masters at making multi barrel sets. Play with a 3 or 4 gauge set of theirs and be amazed.
Old colonel, the advice about shooting your gun and then temporarily adjusting the balance point to your preference is spot on.
Regards,
Jeff
Last edited by JNW; 06/29/16 09:50 AM.
"We are men of action. Lies do not become us."
Wesley
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
Nope.
I bet he picks up a gun and mounts it and knows by feel whether he likes it or not.
Of course he is taking a non numerical measurement of those values and comparing it to his usual gun. Just like Michael McIntosh did every time I shot with him. From a competition O/U, to a cast-on Dickson, to a custom Fox to what ever anyone handed him. Within a few shots he was breaking birds with each gun. That makes him extraordinarily adaptable. Most shooters aren't so gifted and need all the help they can get.I wonder how the MOI measurer shoots with a variety of different guns. It doesn't. How does anyone's scale or balance fulcrum or yard stick shoot with a variety of guns? Nonsense aside, these are tools that yield facts about guns - not more, not less. Also, I wonder about the OP and how three different barrel configuration could possibly balance at the same point? at three different weights? Highly unlikely... As stated above, a matter of science. Having all three with the same MOI is also possible, but trickier yet.BTW: I was never condescending... Would you please put you issue with MOI in plain words. I'll be happy to discuss with you. If you have a personal issue with me, please PM me and we can discuss. DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,265 Likes: 2043
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,265 Likes: 2043 |
Nope.
I bet he picks up a gun and mounts it and knows by feel whether he likes it or not.
Of course he is taking a non numerical measurement of those values and comparing it to his usual gun. Just like Michael McIntosh did every time I shot with him. From a competition O/U, to a cast-on Dickson, to a custom Fox to what ever anyone handed him. Within a few shots he was breaking birds with each gun. I wonder how the MOI measurer shoots with a variety of different guns. Also, I wonder about the OP and how three different barrel configuration could possibly balance at the same point? at three different weights? Highly unlikely... BTW: I was never condescending... McIntosh may well have e been hitting birds within a few shots. Any good wingshot should be able to do that, if the gun is reasonably close to fitting. I want, however, to hit the bird FIRST shot, after switching guns. If the dynamics are the same, it helps you to be able to do so. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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