doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LeFever 16ga E grade

Certainly worth a crack. I've spent more on less I am sure. A 20 E could be a spectacular piece. Fwiw I have owned 7 Lefever arms 20 ga guns and 6 of the 7 had "bad barrels." 4 with barrel walls .010 to .018, one with a hairline crack and one with bulges. 4 were fluid and 2 were Damascus. The 7th I have yet to measure as it sits in the safe likely unfired and I am not sure I want to know.
( I am clearly a sucker for a Lefever )

Mark interesting post ,I too am badly stricken with Lefeveritus but up here in Canada they are beyond rare ...you mention that you've found six with bad barrels ,did they come from the factory with thinner tubes or were they tampered with through the years ...I ask because most I find (which are few ) seem to have above average wall thickness with the exception of one F grade that is on the thin side

First of all. Just to be clear- I am not trying to discourage the buyer. I obviously would keep buying them. I would love to have a little better luck though! I have bought zero 12 or 16 gauges Lefevers with barrel issues. I don't think "it's a standard Lefever problem" Now the first thing I ask myself is are the 20 ga guns I can afford, Junkers? That is possibly the case when bidding online, but likely irrelevant on the ones I've found on foot at reasonable or uneducated asking prices. As far as answering your questiosn, I don't know. I have wondered the same. Simply considering my numbers I would assume that fluid steel 20s were on the thin side to begin with BUT I have never received any commiserating data or opinions from others so my data is just one tiny piece of the puzzle.

I think that Lefever struck the 20's thinner than 12 and 16's. Every one I have come across has been a delightful wand feeling more like a 28 than a 20. If they struck them to .025 or .020 there is not that much extra metal there if honed much. And did they measure barrels much after striking? Maybe they set their standard at .020 to start with.

I have a DS 20 that needs to have deep pitting cleaned up but it is already at .018 in the thinner areas already. Last owner refinished the barrels and they are now shiney but too thin. Too thin to clean up, too pitted to shoot. I have a set of Briley 20/28 ga tubes that I could fit to it or have thought about having it sleeved into a 28 ga, 30" barrel. But the cost just makes it into one of those endless money pits I am trying to not dive into. At less than five pounds it is a joy to swing by a lit firecracker to shoot.

I have a very late 12 gauge H grade with 28" twist bbls, SN on frame is 73,338 & on barrels 73,342 I have never actually measured the wall thickness but with a total weight of 6� lbs they are rather thin. While I have never seen it SN 73,337 is listed as a 12 ga with 28" Damascus barrels. Damascus there may, or may not, mean Twist, some folks just do not differentiate between them. I have never shot this gun but a few times with some very light loads as I feel the barrels are a bit suspect.

I have a GE 20 and it also has rather thin barrels (.019 left and .021 right. I am in the camp of that is probably the way Lefever made the barrels and we may be getting to anal about this. I shoot mine with lite RST's FWIW

I have nothing intelligent to contribute regarding Lefevers, but it is not at all unusual to find MWT about .020" PAST 20" in vintage small bore U.S. doubles. Beyond the dent concern, I'm WAY more concerned about MWT breech to 12", which is rarely reported by dealers. And running a wall thickness gauge quickly down a barrel, usually one pass down the thicker top near the rib, and announcing the MWT is ____ means nothing.

Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes � Feu Portatives (C.I.P) http://www.cip-bobp.org/
Standard CIP proof pressure of 850 kg per sq. cm. (BAR) = 13,920 psi proof pressure = 10,730 psi service pressure (SAAMI)
Shotgun recommended minimum wall thickness (p.4) for Standard Steel with tensile strength 700 - 849 N/sq. mm = 101,526-123,137 psi
http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/default/files/new_file/A-4-1_EN.pdf

20g
End of chamber - .075�
4� from breech - .071�
8� - .041�
12� - .028�
16� - .022�
20� - .020�

Please note the average crolle tensile strength in one study was about 1/2 the CIP "standard strength" barrel. Pre-WWI steel barrels were reported, and a few measured, at 85,000 - 105,000 psi.

I think it's tough to generalize about the thickness of Lefever barrels. I have a 20 ga. DS that weighs just as much as my FE 12 ga. at 6 lb. 4 oz., and I have a 16 ga. DS that weighs less at 6 lb. 2 oz. Then I also have a couple 20 ga. Lefevers that are a little lighter. Two of my 20's have mild pitting and the heaviest is not pitted. I've also seen a few 20 ga. Lefevers that had deeply pitted barrels, or at least appeared that way. It is hard to judge the depth of pitting at a poorly lit gun show, especially when the seller can't take the time to swab or brush the crud out of barrels that look like a sewer pipe.

I'm actually always a little suspect of bright shiny mirror bores in 100+ year old guns unless the overall condition suggests that it was always well cleaned and cared for. But at $800.00 for a 20 ga. E grade, I'd be a probable buyer unless I saw a damn good reason to keep my wallet in my pants. If you don't have a tool to measure barrel wall thickness or bore diameters, it couldn't hurt to ask for a few days to get it measured and return it if it was honed out junk. This thread is a couple days old, so tell us if you were lucky enough for it to still be there when you went back for another look.

Now that its home, I was able to look it over more carefully.

53211 Manufactured 1906
E grade
28" Krupp barrels
all numbers match
Case in hidden areas only
Min wall thickness .031 (8" from muzzle one barrel)
6lbs 7oz. (muzzle heavy) Not near as light as I was expecting
1 small hairline crack behind left plate
chip missing at heel
forend solid no missing wood
top lever right but action a bit loose
Need new butt plate
slight dent at muzzle left barrel
barrels ring
Scalloped PG cap
Screws are perfect

Pics to follow.
Hope I didn't get taken. $825.00 OTD

I am sure that after a few nights you will be able to sleep well again...Enjoy it...Good catch..