doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French reproofing? 65 & 70 mm marked on same gun

I'm looking at a French 16 bore double of indeterminate age advertised as having 2 3/4" (70 mm) chambers. I've seen a number of French guns with 70 mm chambers but marked 65 mm (2 1/2"). I generally treat them with caution as being out of proof; they might be fine or not depending on the profile of the barrel walls near the front of the original chambers.

The seller sent me a photo of the proof marks, noting that the gun was clearly marked "65". I might have written the gun off at that point, but when I looked at the photo, I was surprised to see on each barrel flat a "70" stamped just as clearly right next to the 65s.

Has anyone encountered anything like this on a Continental gun? It seems very common in Britain. I'm not sure if I should interpret it as an official reproof, but it seems at the least to indicate that whoever did the work was confident enough to record it. So probably not the cousin of the guy behind the counter at the tackle and bait shop.

I've asked the seller for permission to post the pic here. Will add it if he's agreeable. Other than the altered chambers it's a very appealing little gun in great shape.

Bill

I have a 12-ga. Arrieta 570 2-bbl. set that I spec'd the #1 set of barrels to have 2 3/4" chambers and the #2 set to have 3". The barrel flats are stamped with their corresponding chamber length -- 12-70 and 12-76 respectively. The water table is stamped as you see below:

If the work was done, and submitted to a proofhouse in Europe, it would have a stamp designating reproof, not simply the length of the new chamber.

If it doesn't, and all the different marks for reproof across Europe would be a study in and of itself, it is safe to assume it was not reproofed at the time the 70 marks were applied.


Best,
Ted

Here's the photo of the proofs.


I see nothing that indicates a reproofing, but I'm not at all sure I'd recognize it if it was there. I've also had no luck finding out anything about A. Breuil, Claude Breuil and Jean Breuil are recorded as barrel makers in St. Etienne ca. 1950 in John Walter's Concise Dictionary of Guns and Gunmakers. No mention in that source of MPB Paris. I guess the answer is to have a seriously qualified gunsmith go over it and evaluate wall thickness near the chambers.

French reproof is a crown and R. I've owned one gun with that mark. I'd say Ted's right. Without the reproof mark, someone had the chambers punched but the gun was not submitted for reproof.

Larry,
That is just one mark of French reproof, and it is the mark for St. Etienne since 1960. Reproof with black powder is an R with a different crown in St. Etienne, and just an R in Paris. P.T. under star but over an R is smokeless powder reproof in Paris. Superior smokeless powder reproof is the same, except 2 stars.

Like I said, just the study of reproof marks could keep a guy busy a long time. Around 1950, there were Darne guns that were proofed at 70 chamber, but, were still marked 65. How many is anyone's guess, but, it did happen, and not to just a few.

Having pointed all that rot out, I see nothing on the flats that makes me believe this gun was ever reproofed.

Best,
Ted

Thanks guys. Very interesting about 70 mm proofed Darnes marked as 65. It seems that except for post 1965 Dsrnes every time I've asked the seller of a 70 mm French double about the proofs its turned out to have been marked 65. I've always assumed that the chambers had been lengthened Stateside by who knows who. Ted's info suggests that's not always the case. I agree there's no indication of a reproof and speculating about how the double marks came about is pointless. I appreciate the information and insights.
Bill

Ted--Good catch on the other French reproof marks. However, the source I'm using (Lee Kennett's Gun Digest material, which basically updated Baron Engelhardt's earlier texts on proof) lists ALL of those marks as only existing after 1960. So how about the possibility that the gun was reproofed prior to 1960 (and just from the flats, it looks as if it could well be a pre-1960 gun), the new chamber length marked, but no reproof mark required?

Larry,
I'm pretty sure that marks for reproof existed prior to 1960, and, I know the Nazis had a series of proofmarks that were applied at both French proofhouses during the war, but, as to what they were for sure, I don't know.
Reproof has been going on in Europe since just shortly after proof was started, and I know I have seen French guns that have an R on the barrel flats, that I would bet had been put there well before 1960.
I am pretty confident the proofhouse would put more than just the new chamber length, on a gun submitted for reproof, in any European country that has a proofhouse.

Best,
Ted

Ted--I would have guessed that there would have been French reproof marks prior to 1960, but Kennett's list--which is the best source I have--doesn't show any older ones. I have two French books on shotguns, one dating from 1972 and the other from 1980. Neither one shows even the later reproof marks. (And the 1980 book only shows a selection of foreign proofmarks.)