doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 keel rib fell off

I was shooting my new to me Model 21 trap and the keel rib fell off. For those who don't know what a 'keel rib' is (including myself a few days ago re nomenclature), it's the short 2-3" section of rib on the underside of the barrels located behind the forend lug and covered by the forearm. I've been told all the ribs now need to be relaid. I'm not sure why that is the case?? Why can't this small section of rib just be soldered back on? I'm just hoping this isn't a big deal that requires redoing all the ribs!!

In theory the fact that the keel rib fell off shows that poor workmanship was probably also at play when installing the other ribs. It's possible the other ribs pop off.

Some gunsmiths might try to relay the keel only and if there is still solder adhered/tinned to the barrel where the keel rib would normally contact it's doable. You may have issues with heat transfer concerning the top rib, forend hanger, and bottom rib.

Not something I would do, I'd pull off everything and relay.

There is no reason, that i see, why the whole barrel set needs to come apart in order to put back in the keel rib.
The forend lugs on 21s cradle the tubes, so a loose lug means disassembly of the barrels. And the breech os soft soldered together (but dovetailed) which makes things a little tricky when heating them up. And 4140 is a little harder to solder than older softer barrel steels. But none of those quirky things about 21 barrels would prevent the keel rib alone from being cleaned up and soldered back in.

It depends but I have re-layed many short ribs without doing a full relay. Depends upon a few things like how much contamination is present, the condition of the other sections etc. It does not always require a full re-lay. That said I was quite hopeful I could reset a short section of rib last week....no go, need to do the whole job on that one.

SKB, I'm a dummy, but my English gunsmith told me that's the 'keel' rib.

You know what they say, two countries separated by a common language......

I agree. The forend lug appears sound. This gun is a ventilated rib gun. An early one.

Ok, so I'm cheap.....since the short rib doesn't receive any pressure and does nothing other than cover up the barrels why not just glue the darned thing back in. Some of the super glues have incredible strength. Clean up and probably forget it the rest of your life. No heat, no shipping, no cost.

That is only the cheap way in the short run Joe......you will end up paying for the full Monty eventually if you try to glue it.

I agree; however, I'm wondering if this thing wasn't already super glued before I bought it??? The 'solder' area of the rib looks mighty rough in this 'keel rib' area. Lots of garbage left over, but nothing that looks like solder......more like rust and garbage. I'm worried the other ribs are similar. I might have been 'screwed' again?? We roll the dice on these used guns, for sure.

If you are looking for an easy fix try this. I'm assuming that the area of contact is not contaminated with rust. Get yourself a spray can of brake cleaner from your local auto parts store. Also get a bottle of Loctite Black Max # 380 adhesive. Use the brake cleaner to degrease the points of contact. Give it 15 minutes to completely dry. Apply the Black Max sparingly to all contact points. Press the rib section into position, wipe away all excess Black Max, and clamp the rib in position for 24 hours. Chances are, if done properly, this repair will outlast you! This adhesive is fortified with powdered rubber and has excellent adhesive and filling properties.

PS: Make sure that you have some acetone handy to clean the Black Max off your hands once you're finished, else you'll need to let it wear off!!!

I had a keel rib fall out of a Simson. Shot it for several years that way with no ill effects. The barrels still retain >95% original blue and I didn't want to reblue them. Had a good 'smith check out the barrels and he soldered the keel back in and cold blued it. You can't tell it's been repaired and I've shot this gun a lot since then. Several thousand rounds and it looks good and the barrels ring like church bells.
Jeff

I had the keel rib fall off my fox about 15 years ago. Soldered it back on with a non-acid flux and have had no issues since.

Why make a simple repair a big deal?

If the metal on this rib is straight and not concave, I would think it would be a type of re-enforcing rib. Again I don't know much about other manufacturers, but L.C. Smith called it just what I stated. This type was on the early L.C.'s and later it was a curved heavier duty piece of metal that was soldered and the curve was near the loop. It was found on Trap grade shotguns and Trap option shotguns and on some Longrange guns.
Here is an example on a Trap Grade that has an extra set of barrels and an extra for-end stamped 2


This is the early style (pre-1902 gun shown) re-enforcing rib or re-enforced loop.

to paraphrase cassius clay:

"no keel rib neva fell off my stevens 311"...

Well, tonight I noticed an area on the bottom rib in front of the forearm lug is loose too. When I bought this gun, the barrels rang like chimes. A gunsmith checked the gun and said it was fine. I have shot quite a bit of sporting with this gun. I wonder if the barrels got so hot that the solder melted??? Well, my decision is made for me.......no choice but to have all ribs relaid. Since I'm going through all this, maybe I will have Paulene upgrade it to a grade III, or a IV, or maybe a V since the barrels will have to be redone? Lots to ponder......

Impossible for that to happen from shooting. Maybe, if it has been exposed to some high heat source. IMO, it's usually the recoil/vibration that does it.

Sorry for your bad luck.

SRH

Hmmmm......maybe so Stan. Thanks for commiserating with me. I'm a bit upside down on this particular gun now, but it is what it is. I was planning on having a new stock made anyway. I think I'm going to go for an upgrade with nice, traditional Winchester engraving and 'A' carved wood. I'm pretty fond of Grade V engraving on a 21. We'll see......

buzz, Were these Winchester Model 21 barrels ever re-blued??? If these barrels were re-blued using the incorrect technique for SXS barrels then this would explain what has happened to these barrels.......If these barrels were re-blued incorrectly then you will need to remove and relay all of the ribs and shims, if there are any shims between the barrels......Good Shooting To You, Jent

Howdy Jent, My gunsmith didn't think the barrels had been re-blued, but after this fiasco,I'm betting they have been. This is a pre-war gun that looked pretty darn good. Made in 1938, so about 80 years old. For not being a closet queen, and looking as pristine as it did, I bet it's been redone. And......now it's going to get redone again!

Good news is that 21's are stout and can survive several redo's without worrying about wall thickness. The ribs are and lug do tend to give a bit of problem with big honking beaver tail fore ends. Not so much with splinters. I have had three, a 12, 16 and 20 with zero problems with them.

I understand your delemia about repair, upgrade or total upgrade. It's your gun fix it up as you want but always for the long term. Use it for ten years and no amount of money put into it is a big deal. Upgrade it and sell it in a year or two and you will take a big hit in the wallet most likely. So make it what you want it to be and enjoy it for the long term.

Buzz,
Your "Custom" dream gun will be nobody else's. If your pockets are deep and $$ is no object,
far be it for me to tell you how to spend your coin. IMHO you should just fix the rib and get on with your shooting.
Perhaps spend that "Custom" money on a second 21. Ya, that's the ticket!

Haha Bob, a 'custom dream gun'......nah, this is strictly a tournament gun for me. I'm so far behind the 8 ball on this one now, there's no way to make money no matter what I have done. But, I was intending to have a custom stock made (to my dimensions) for tournament shooting (I just bought a super nice $400 blank from Cecil Fredi) and now that the thing will have to be reblued, I might as well spend a little more and have some nice engraving done. But a dream gun, nah.