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Kyrie Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Irrational

I'm not entirely sure I agree: there are new Spanish guns available off the shelf in London and the sale of stock guns was linked to in the original post. Being pedantic, yes there's an order on the factory, but a speculative one from a dealer rather than firm from an end customer.

I suspect were coming at this from different directions.

Im writing from the view point of the Spanish gun maker and his end customer is whoever pays for the gun. For him, there is nothing speculative about the sale, and the gun maker has no interest in what his customer does with the gun he has bought; shoot it, sell it, gift it, throw it in the ocean, its all the same to the maker .

I understand you are writing from the viewpoint of some re-seller, who will buy some number of shotguns, configured in whatever way he believes will allow the timely re-sale of the guns at a profit. Thats speculative indeed, and he must be concerned with whether the actual demand meets/exceeds his inventory.

As an aside, there are a couple of interesting related topics lurking here.

Firstly, I could make a good argument that any Spanish artisanal shotgun purchased by a retailer and offered for re-sale isnt a new gun. At best its a second hand gun, offered NIB.

Secondly, buying an artisanal Spanish shotgun from a retailer, said gun being one from a lot of such guns made to the retailers specification, has a lot in common with buying a secondhand, NIB, custom made business suit that was made to someone elses measure. It seems to me to obviate any advantage in buying a custom made shotgun.

There is enough controversy in either of those two discussions to keep this group jawing for years :-)

Sorry for the digression back on topic.

Originally Posted By: Irrational

The point I was driving at though was more one around interest in just how many guns are now made each year by small producers (we can't be talking big numbers but curious if anyone knows just how low production has now fallen).


Largely unknown and unknowable. The internal market for new, artisanal, shotguns in Spain is very close to zero. That market was killed by the new gun tax back circa 2008, and the consequences of that tax. The external market for Spanish artisanal shotguns has always been very small and is getting smaller for a number of reasons (e.g. world economic conditions, shrinking opportunity to own guns and/or hunt/shoot, tightening gun control actions, and especially the tightening export rules in Spain and the EU generally, to name only a few reasons).

Back in the days when the big boys (Victor Sarasqueta and the original AyA) were at their peak (say, roughly, 1965) their yearly production was in the tens of thousands of guns and some years topped one-hundred thousand guns. The current big gun makers (based on number of employees/shareholders) (e.g. AyA, Grulla, Arrieta, etc.) likely didnt have orders totaling more than a few hundred side lock guns so far this year (box lock orders are a wild card). The smaller, one/two man, shops (a la Zubillaga) may not fill orders for more than a dozen guns in a year.

Kyrie #453867 08/20/16 02:39 PM
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Write the book Kyrie! Please...Geo

Kyrie #453872 08/20/16 03:00 PM
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That market is smaller than for the guns?

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Write the book Kyrie! Please...Geo


I'd write the book "now" also.....looks like there will be no reason to wait 4 new chapters or additions....and with most secondary guns once they stop making them ...for the most part interest in their history wanes....


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Kyrie #453877 08/20/16 03:23 PM
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Indeed, it would be interesting, Kyrie!

For the very reason you mention, the artisan guns available in London always intrigue me. Are people really that impulsive/impatient that they're not willing to wait? I doubt anyone buying such a weapon doesn't have others at their disposal...

Interesting that the production figures are so low in Spain, I'd heard of the tax issue but hadn't realised they'd been hit so hard by it. To add an international dimension, I understand that Purdey's production runs at around 75 shotguns pa and the likes of Piotti are able to run at a rate of around 50 pa.

Unless there are lots of manufacturers out there that fly well below the radar I wonder if global production of sidelocks even makes it into the multiple thousands these days?

It's a shame that so few are willing, or able, to pay for craftsmanship. Sadly not a state of affairs unique to fine guns...

Kyrie #453879 08/20/16 03:46 PM
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Ive been a bit down with the news of Ugartechea as the next Spanish shotgun maker to close its doors. Its a sad thing.

This morning, in a kind of memorial, I took an Ugartechea model 41, chambered for the 2.75 inch .410 shell, made circa 1956, out of the safe and used it to shoot two rounds of wobble trap. Here are some photos, shot in Spain by a dear friend, in the shop of Diego Godoy, who was restocking the gun to my measure with my wood:







I was shooting on a public range, just before a clays tournament, so it was quite crowded. The guns there ranged for ugly and utilitarian quite handsome and utilitarian. And not one had the style or the grace of that old, Ugartechea, .410.

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Kyrie Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Irrational

For the very reason you mention, the artisan guns available in London always intrigue me. Are people really that impulsive/impatient that they're not willing to wait? I doubt anyone buying such a weapon doesn't have others at their disposal...


I cannot speak to England, but can offer some observations about the people Ive chatted with here in the USA on just that subject.

Many are afraid of the lack of direct contact between themselves and the gun maker. There is a fear of being unable to communicate their desires, and a fear they would not get the gun they wanted. So they settle for a choice from a more-or-less local re-sellers inventory, that they can return if it doesnt live up to expectations.

A surprising number of people have no concept of proper stock fit, or their own needs in terms of the best stock dimensions for them, personally. Even those who understand the potential importance of a properly fitted stock dont know their needs, or have any intent (or means) of being fitted.

Those are two of the reasons people here in the States are content to buy a Spanish side lock from a re-seller.

Speaking for myself, Id rather buy a used gun than have a new gun made. Ive found I can buy a used gun for a fifth to a tenth of the cost of a nearly identical new gun. It has been relatively cheap to have such a gun restored and re-stocked to my measure with a nice piece of wood Ive acquired and supplied.

Alas, its becoming harder and harder to do that, as the resources in Spain dry up.

Kyrie #454043 08/22/16 07:22 PM
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Re fitting: The fitter may be right about what fits you, but it may also cause adjustment to the way you shoot. Example:

Several years back, our Ruffed Grouse Society offered a pheasant hunt to be auctioned at an RGS banquet. Our hunt went to a banquet in Alaska, where a couple guys bought it. Showed up, having flown their dogs down to Iowa--so pretty serious hunters. One of them had two guns with him: A bespoke Spanish sidelock with dimensions from a fitting he'd just had, and an old Parker he'd shot for years.

First day of the hunt, the guy could not hit squat with the Spanish gun. So he tells me: I'm going to shoot my Parker tomorrow. He does, and he shoots it quite well. Suspicious that there's likely significant differences in fit between the two, I ask him to get out the Spanish gun. Suspicions confirmed. The stock on the Spaniard is close to an inch longer, and has significantly less drop. He told me that he shot quite well using the fitter's try gun with those dimensions.

At which point I broke the news to him that I didn't think he'd ever be able to shoot both guns well. Because of the difference, he'd have to stick with one or the other. As an experienced hunter and having shot the old Parker for years, he'd adapted to dimensions that would have horrified the fitter. But he was used to it. Given time, he'd probably get equally used to the Spaniard . . . but then he'd have to hang the Parker on the wall.

People new to the game often do better with a fitting than those who've been at it for some time. The latter group may have figured out roughly what they think their dimensions are, and have adjusted to guns that fit that way. Changing what they're used to . . . it's like teaching that old dog new tricks. It can be done, but it's likely easier with a puppy.

Kyrie #454057 08/22/16 11:29 PM
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The best balanced shotgun I've ever owned was a Spanish sidelock 12 gauge built by AMR. I don't hunt enough upland game to put out the money for a new Spanish shotgun now and the used ones are way out of my dimensions. Still shake my head over selling that Spaniard.

Because who in their right mind would rough hunt with no dog with a shotgun having a 15 1/2 inch length of pull??

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Originally Posted By: treblig1958
The best balanced shotgun I've ever owned was a Spanish sidelock 12 gauge built by AMR. I don't hunt enough upland game to put out the money for a new Spanish shotgun now and the used ones are way out of my dimensions. Still shake my head over selling that Spaniard.

Because who in their right mind would rough hunt with no dog with a shotgun having a 15 1/2 inch length of pull??


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