doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ugartechea is done?

Good points about French guns, Ted. Because the French never tried very hard to penetrate the US market--and particularly because, unlike the Spanish, they never cut corners to produce "price point" guns for the US market and ended up damaging the reputation of their entire gun industry as a result--there was never any blanket condemnation of the French gun industry, as was (unfairly) applied to the Spanish some years ago. What there was, for the most part, was a lack of knowledge about French guns--with the exception of the quirky Darne, which was simply too quirky for most Americans.

Some of us, however, discovered that more typical (meaning standard break action) French shotguns tended to be quite consistently well-made, even if they were very plain. And they remained real sleepers on the American market for a long time. they still are, to a certain extent, for the simple reason that you can't judge them based on a maker's name--because many of them don't carry a real maker's name. Sometimes no name at all; sometimes the name of the gun shop that sold the gun in question. France is really the best example of "buy the gun, not the name". But you have to be really careful, because without a name, there's no "brand value" to apply, as in the valuation system Don Amos uses for British guns. Beyond Darne, Manufrance, and maybe Verney-Carron, very few Americans have any kind of clue when it comes to French guns. And while that's also true to a certain extent with German and Belgian guns, there are far more famous names to add "brand value" to guns from those countries.

If you want a solid gun, find something French in decent condition. (Quite a few show significant misuse/abuse.) Check for pitted barrels (corrosive primers, because most predate WWII) and heavy trigger pulls. Chokes will often be tight, but that's a relatively cheap and easy fix. Don't pay too much. You can likely score a gun that's better than its equivalent from anywhere else, and for less money. But not as much less as used to be the case.

There are a lot of moving parts in the collapse of the Spanish artisanal shotgun makers, and none of those parts involve the myth of soft steel or American gun writers.

This is mostly the result of poor Spanish governance, Poor EU governance, and what amounts to a worldwide �recession�.

The two most recent parts are the new Spanish yearly tax on the ownership of a firearm and the Spanish/EU response to the terrorist attacks in the EU countries.

In terms of that yearly tax, back around 2008 Spain imposed a new, yearly, tax of 100 Euro on each gun possessed. This tax flushed out all the shotguns held, but infrequently (or never) used. Rather than pay the 100 EU yearly tax people just turned them into the Civil Guard.

These were not a few guns; these are of tens of thousands of guns made sometime in the last hundred and fifty years. The Civil Guard began auctioning these abandoned guns in roughly 2009. The truly high end guns were mostly purchased in Spain, by Spanish collectors and the local Spanish gun shops that served those top-end buyers. The lower price point guns, and the guns in poorer shape, were purchased by others - including some US importers.

Century Arms International (CAI) imported thousands into the USA. Most of these CAI imports were in pretty rough condition, but there were some real gems. There were so many of these guns that the price here in the USA of a nice quality, used, Spanish side lock crashed from circa $3,000 to less that $1000. I personally bought a couple dozen and never paid more than $800. For a few of these guns I paid less than 300 USD.

In Spain, the local market for new artisanal guns simply dried up. No one in his right mind would pay 10,000 - 20,000 Euro for a new gun when he could buy a used one for under 1,000 Euro, spend another 700 Euro to have the used gun restored to like new (with a new, custom, made-to-his-measure, stock). I did this with several guns myself.

At present, in Spain, a new, top end, gun will run between 20,000 and 30,000 Euro, depending on the bells and whistles. That same gun, used and restorable to like new condition, can be had for a few hundred Euro.

Regarding the terrorist attacks in the EU countries, the knee jerk EU response has been to tighten up the regulation of the gun trade, especially the import/export of firearms. As a result it�s increasingly difficult to export a shotgun from Spain. Back in 2012 I could get a Spanish export permit for any number of shotguns in about three months. At present I know people who have been waiting almost a year for a Spanish shotgun export permit.

Bottom line: no domestic market and a failing export market.

That Spanish artisanal shotgun makers are going out of business isn't surprising; what is surprising is there are any left.

Another factor is the increased sales of Turkish-made SxS's.

The Turks only compete with the lower-end SxS's, but they seem to be selling well: CZ, SKB, Dickinson, etc.

In the past, Ugartechea and AyA used to compete in this low-end SxS segment with their boxlocks.

The EU's economic problems, and a strong dollar also contributed.

If soft Spanish gun parts are a myth could someone explain the Grulla 215 that came in my shop in this weak with ejectors smashed both where the hammers contact them and where they contact the stop screw? I showed the damage to client and anyone who understands proper metallurgy can clearly see the issue is they were simply made too soft. No myths....just the facts at the bench this week.

What I wrote was �the myth of soft steel�. What you�re reporting is low carbon steel with poor to no heat treatment.

If you can understand those are two different subjects we can have a discussion.

You want to start argument over something I never said, then you�re just arguing with yourself.

Please by all means, educate me. My premise is that the ejectors were shipped out too soft. My guess is they actually used some type of tool steel and over tempered the parts creating something that was not as hard as it should have been. It could indeed be low carbon steel but I thought Grulla was a better maker than that, could be my mistake. Help me out, your the expert. What exactly is the reasons the ejectors are not properly heat treated? If you are able to tell me the alloy that was used to make the part I can properly heat treat them myself. Not looking for an argument but I have run into many heat treating issues with Spanish guns over the years and them having soft parts is no myth.

First off, I'm being misunderstood. French guns didn't ever have a problem with soft steel. Their reputation suffers from peoples' misconception and complete lack of knowledge and experience surrounding French built guns combined with the seemingly inability of American gun writers to correct these misconceptions. But, unlike other countries and their gun makers, the French don't really care if you buy their gun or not, they're doing just fine without you.

The Spanish high end guns for the money are probably the best deal you can find for a new double even with the higher prices.

But, demand is down, so much so that a fine builder is gone because of this lack of demand.

Steve, your a Gunsmith, as such, you don't know squat!!

The Master has spoken, so it's no use. Your years of experience is all for nought when it comes to Spanish guns.....you fool!

Good Luck!

GJW, I assume you are being ironic, am I right?

Getting back to the original point as to why another gun maker is going out of business.
Have you ever contemplated upon the number of double guns there are currently privately owned and in circulation?
I believe the membership here is also astute enough to realize that a well built double gun will last for generations if properly cared for.
I and I know many of you as well own perfectly functional double guns that are over 100 years old that still provide reliable service.
Additionally there IMO hasn't been a real breakthrough in double gun technology in decades. A 50 or 75 year old gun can be just as effective in the field and one made last month.
In general a used double can be bought for a fraction of the cost of a new one and I'll give you some hard numbers here. I have a 2 barrel cased AyA double that was built in the 70s at a cost of around $4,000. To duplicate this gun today from AyA(and I have a written quote) it would cost over $13,000.
You add all this up along with a weak economy and I think it's apparent why the new mid range to high end gun market is weak.
Jim