S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
7 members (SamW, SKB, Argo44, 3 invisible),
276
guests, and
2
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,935
Posts550,902
Members14,460
|
Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553 |
Joe Wood, I don't have an autoloader, but your remark about them needing High Pressure loads to function seems off. Surely it is recoil that keeps them cycling...& you can get loads moving smartly enough to cycle , that are not that high in psi if you look for them? Of course I am talking reloads Just asking, n no harm meant my friend Cheers Franc
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,246 Likes: 186
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,246 Likes: 186 |
I always use 2 3/4" hulls in my short chambered guns. And after literally tens of thousands of rounds I can report I still have all my fingers. All scientifically controlled tests I have seen regarding this issue concluded no significant increase in chamber pressure using the longer hull. If you're interested, call the Double Gun Journal and ask for a copy of the issue containing Sherman Bell's report on using long hulls in short chambers.
It is chamber pressure that is important, not hull length. If short and long hulls give about the same chamber pressure in a short chamber then I consider both to be safe to shoot. It's interesting to note that long after 2 3/4" ammunition became standard most American gun manufacturers continued to cut their chambers 2 5/8" but recommended using the longer 2 3/4" hull.
+1, Joe is right on the money with this one. The catch is, you almost have to reload, I've not seen any data on commercial 2 3/4" ammo that is low pressure. The only one is RST 2 3/4" which they told me is around 7500psi IIRC (you can call them to get the exact pressure). My reloads are 5900psi and have worked just fine in my 2 1/2" guns and they kill birds just fine. In fact I had my J. Harkom hammergun (circa 1890) out yesterday I also use these reloads in my Nitro Proofed Damascus guns, no problems there either. Good Luck! Greg Greg, Beautiful Harkom! 5,900 psi is LOW. I'm assuming that's a 12ga? The RST 16ga. 2 1/2", 1 oz "Lite" loads are 7,000 psi at 1,200 fps. Matt Thanks Matt for the kind words. Shes a fun gun to shoot and yep it's a 12b gun. I've used this load in cold weather and never had a blooper or mis-fire. I like it! Thanks again! Greg
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,056 Likes: 338
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,056 Likes: 338 |
In SSM July/Aug 2016, on pg 64, a well known ballistics expert says that it is chamber pressure that controls cold weather ignition consistency. 6200 is too low for reliability.
Out there doing it best I can.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,246 Likes: 186
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,246 Likes: 186 |
In SSM July/Aug 2016, on pg 64, a well known ballistics expert says that it is chamber pressure that controls cold weather ignition consistency. 6200 is too low for reliability.
Could be, all I know is the load I use has been thru 2 ND winters with no problems. One thing that someone suggested is to put disposable hand warmers with your shells and rotate shells between them and the ones in your gun. This will keep the shells fairly warm to avoid any problems. Good idea, but to be honest I never used this method, does make sense. BTW, my loads have been tested by Tom Armburst and do come in around 5900psi. Best, Greg
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 190
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 190 |
I have a number of black powder era doubles and a few early smokeless with short chambers with forcing cones designed for paper wads. I cut plastic hulls down to 2-1/2" and load black powder or BlackMZ for those that are black powder guns and light loads of Red Dot for smokeless era guns. Shot load is 7/8 or 1 oz. I use plastic wads and roll crimp. As I can reload, I can make the loads work for the gun. I really don't need heavy loads anyway.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Couple of comments here. 1st; Recoil controls the operation of a recoil operated semi-auto such as the old Browning A-5. Most modern day semi-autos are gas operated & recoil has virtually nothing to do with their operation, it's the gas pressure. 2nd; Be certain when you load a longer shell into the chamber that its loaded length does not exceed the chamber length. Its fine if a bit of the unfolding crimp reaches up into the forcing cone. It is "Not Fine" if the crimped end of the shell is actually forced into the cone. This increases the resistance to the crimp opening which can raise pressures excessively. This is most times not a problem but could occur if loading a roll crimped 2 3/4" shell into a "True" 2˝" chamber. Most short chambered American guns had 2 5/8" chambers. Most British ones will be found to measure from 2 916 to 2/58 in spite of the nominal 2˝" classification. Most European ones had 65mm or about 2 9/16" chambers.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,386 Likes: 1324
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,386 Likes: 1324 |
In SSM July/Aug 2016, on pg 64, a well known ballistics expert says that it is chamber pressure that controls cold weather ignition consistency. 6200 is too low for reliability.
Could be, all I know is the load I use has been thru 2 ND winters with no problems. One thing that someone suggested is to put disposable hand warmers with your shells and rotate shells between them and the ones in your gun. This will keep the shells fairly warm to avoid any problems. Good idea, but to be honest I never used this method, does make sense. BTW, my loads have been tested by Tom Armburst and do come in around 5900psi. Best, Greg I'd say two Dakota winters is a pretty good test of your 5900 psi load. I use a bismuth load in that neighborhood too, but it's not nearly as cold here, so obviously the Deep South is not a very good test. I'm not complaining. It seems to me that the complaints I have heard on forums about poor ignition in cold weather came from the use of 4625, which is what I currently use. But, there are faster burning powders that can be loaded to give pressures in the 6000 psi range as well. I'm thinking they are not as subject to "blooping". A snowy duck hunt here (with those low pressure bismuth loads) is the exception, but it sure was fun ............for me, not the ducks. Last Saturday of season Jan. 2016 SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,966 Likes: 96
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,966 Likes: 96 |
2nd; Be certain when you load a longer shell into the chamber that its loaded length does not exceed the chamber length. Its fine if a bit of the unfolding crimp reaches up into the forcing cone. It is "Not Fine" if the crimped end of the shell is actually forced into the cone. This increases the resistance to the crimp opening which can raise pressures excessively.
2-Piper is absolutely correct. As long as the hull mouth opens somewhere in the forcing cone pressure is not a major factor. However, if it is extending into the bore pressures will spike considerably. If the mouth of a fired long hull is torn off or ragged the hull is probably in the bore.
John McCain is my war hero.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355 |
What Joe said. Left - 65mm Eley 28gm 12g; Right - CompX 65mm 21 gm. And BTW: 20g 2 3/4" shells Estate (Federal) 2 5/8"; Fiocchi 2 11/16"; Nobel Sport 2 3/4"; Winchester 2 5/8"; Winchester Universal 2 5/8"; Remington Gun Club 2 11/16" 12g 2 3/4" shells B&P Competition One 7/8 oz. 2 3/4"; Fiocchi 2 11/16"; Fiocchi 2 3/4"; Federal (and Estate) 2 11/16"; Remington Gun Club 2 3/4"; Winchester 2 3/4"; Herter's (Federal) 2 11/16" All 2 11/16": Nobel Sport Low Recoil, Remington STS Premier, Remington Nitro, Federal Top Gun, Federal Top Gun
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355 |
Re: load choice for 2 1/2" chambers, assuming adequate wall thickness
Prior to 1924, the Belgian and British Service (using) maximum load for 12g 2 1/2” and 2 5/8” shells was 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). The pressure of that load would have been about 8500 psi with BULK smokeless powder; with DENSE smokeless 9,500 - 10,500 psi. 2 1/2” shells were usually loaded with 1 1/8 oz. shot and 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless with a pressure of 6500 - 7500 psi; DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.
During WWI the standard English 12g load was dropped by law (to conserve the supplies of lead and powder) to 1 oz. and 3 Dr. Eq. Bulk smokeless. After the War, 2 1/2” shells were generally loaded with 1 1/16 oz. shot and 3 Dr. Eq. Bulk or Dense smokeless powder.
In the 1925 British Proof House revisions, the 2 1/2” & 2 5/8” 12g service load was reduced to 3 Drams with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean service pressure of 3 1/4 tons = (converted using Burrard's forumula) 9,682 psi.
|
|
|
|
|