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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 56
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mbatten Offline OP
Sidelock
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Sidelock

Joined: May 2016
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Lovely gun - thanks for the photos!

What species of ejectors on this model? I don't see any pins in the fore-end iron indicating Southgates.

Cheers!

Joined: Feb 2010
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I recall reading that at one time in a part of this country, Tolley was synonymous with any shotgun, much the same as Hoover is for a vacuum cleaner. For interest, this is what IGC have on Tolley:

Name J & W Tolley
Other Names J & W Tolley Ltd
Address1 22 St Mary's Row 12 & 14 Vesey Street
Address2 19 Loveday Street (Pioneer Works)
Address3 Pioneer Works, 18 Loveday Street
Address4 10 Vesey Street
Address5 10, 12 & 14 Vesey Street
Address6 10 Vesey Street
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun, rifle & pistol makers
Other Address London addresses: 1 Conduit Street, Regent Street; 59 New Bond Street; 5 Regent Place, Regent Street.
Dates 1858-1950

Notes

James William Tolley was born in 1832, possibly in Birmingham but he gave his place of birth in the 1871 census as Wednesbury, Staffordshire. William Tolley was his younger brother, he was born in 1834 and always gave his place of birth as Birmingham.
No entries for either of the brothers has been found in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. In 1858 they established a gun making partnership at 22 St Mary's Row, Birmingham. Undoubtedly, they both served apprenticeships with large gun makers, and then, aged 26 and 24, they started in business by making large quantities of cheap guns, mainly for the African market, but were soon producing higher quality guns. The 1861 census records James Tolley as a 29 year old gun maker living at 22 St Mary's Row with his wife, Sarah Ann (b.1829 in Birmingham) and and their children, Arthur James (b.1857) and William Henry (b.1860).
An 1862 advertisement stated "Gun rifle and pistol manufacturers, Contractor for Military Arms, Breech Loading Guns, Pistols, also all guns suitable for the African markets". In 1866 they entered a gun in the Field Gun Trials but came 32 out of 32.

The 1871 census records James and Sarah living at 47 Hywick Lane, Bordesley, with Arthur James who was described as an office boy, and three more sons, Henry J (b.1862), Edgar L (b.1863) and James R (b.1865). James described himself as a master gun maker. William was also recorded in the 1871 census. He was living in Tower Road with his wife, Mary Ann (nee Hughes b.1841 in Birmingham) and their children, Clara Isabelle (b.1861), Kate Evelyn (b.1864), Mary Ann I (b.1866), Minnie M (b.1868), William H (b.1869) and Nelly L (b.1870). In the early 1870s the firm moved to 19 Loveday Street. From the late 1870s the building was named Pioneer Works. By this time the partnership was a considerable success. In 1871 James Tolley became a shareholder in Braendlin Armoury Co Ltd (see Braendlin Armoury Co Ltd). By 1879 the firm started to acquire a reputation for large bore guns and rifles. James' son Henry had, on 3 February 1877 when he was only 15 years old, filed a patent (No. 461) for a drop-down barrel cocking action with a top rib extension and hook. This was his "Giant Grip" which had a hook on the top lever which fitted into a slot in the top rib extension. This was often used by J & W Tolley (see Henry Tolley of the Times Works, 65-66 Weaman Street).

On 6 December 1879 provisional patent No. 5002 was filed for a barrel locking bolt and hammer cocking action and grip safety. The description of the invention was unclear, it was not registered or used to any great extent. Tolley "Perfection" models may have used the patent. No record has been found of James or Henry Tolley in the 1881 census, they may have been in London or out of the country, but William was recorded living at 127 Albert Road, Aston Manor, he described himself as a gun manufacturer. Mary Ann was living with him as were Kate, Mary Ann, Minnie, William and Nelly L, but two more children were recorded, Ernest (b.1873), Percy J (b.1876) and possibly a third named Hilda (no birth date). Clara was not recorded in this or later censuses. In about 1883, or perhaps 1881, the firm opened a shop in London at 1 Conduit Street. George Bayliss (of the large Birmingham family) was the manager from 1883 to 1903 (when he established his own firm). At this time the firm introduced their "Altro" 12 bore side-lock or box-lock gun, about which the firm said "This new weapon is equally suitable for ordinary game, as well as for duck or for pigeon shooting. This gun will be most useful for sportsmen who do not wish to keep more than one gun for all purposes." It weighed 7 1/2 lbs and was chambered for a 3 inch cartridge. The same gun without recessed choked barrels for shooting ball ammunition was similar to the Fosbery / Holland "Paradox" and was named the "Ubique" or, when sold by other retailers such as Army & Navy, the "Jungle Gun". This had multi-grooved very shallow straight rifling which was twisted and slightly deeper at the muzzle. Neither gun proved very popular, but a version of the Altro was produced with slight choke in the right barrel which could be used with spherical ball ammunition for which a mould was provided (probably about 16 bore for a 12 bore gun).

In 1891 James, Sarah and Henry were recorded living at 25 Leigham Court Road, Streatham, London. James described himself as a gun manufacturer and Henry as a gun maker's assistant. William and Mary A were recorded living at Hazelclose, Warwick Road, Solihull. William described himself as a gun manufacturer and his daughter Minnie (or Clemmie) M, and son William H as gun maker's clerks. Ernest was described as a bicycle apprentice. In 1894 the London shop moved to 59 New Bond Street. By this time the firm's reputation as makers of wildfowling guns was well established, and the firm were appointed gun makers to the King of Portugal. At about this time they were also appointed gun makers to the Persian Royal family. It was probably at this time they opened a shop in New York. In 1901 they became a limited liability company. The 1901 census James as a 69 year old widower living with a nurse / housekeeper. He was managing director of the company. Henry was married Annie M and they lived with a son, Herbert G H, at 48 Fulham Park Gardens, London. William and Mary Ann were living in Church Road, Solihull with some of their children and grandchildren. Between 1904 and 1909 no London shop was recorded, but it certainly existed and the company was recorded from 1909 to 1915 at 5 Regent Place, Regent Street. James Tolley died in 1916, and the company was bought by Holloway & Naughton. In 1919 they were recorded at 10 Vesey Street, Holloway & Naughton occupied 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street at that time.

From 1924 to 1927 the firm's address was 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street but in 1928, and again from 1947 to 1955, it was 10 Vesey Street. In 1929 Holloway & Naughton (and J & W Tolley) were taken over by Skimmin & Wood who moved into their premises at 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street (from 1932 to 1939 10 Vesey Street was occupied by R B Rodda & Co). In 1955 guns ceased to be produced under the J & W Tolley name. In 1964 the firm of Skimmin & Wood was bought by F J Wiseman & Co Ltd of Cannock, Staffordshire. See Tolley (Henry) who was probably the son of J or W Tolley.

Other Info

J & W Tolley became a major manufacturer (and one of the largest trade manufacturers) of sporting guns and rifles. In order to understand the type, quality, model, and style of guns made in the nineteenth century, one has to realise that this was a period of invention and perfection far surpassing anything seen either before or during the next 100 years. Shooting men were more knowledgeable about their guns and the "latest principles" on which they were made than they are today, and both the medium sized gunmaker and the major manufacturer could be much more flexible in terms of what they produced. Whether ordering a gun or buying it off-the-shelf, the customer usually had his own ideas about what he wanted but, in the main, he was advised by his gunmaker. Thus, the specification would list every required detail including any patent numbers for bolting mechanism, safety, triggers and ejectors etc. Although the retailer or "gunmaker" would advise the customer, his advice would depend on what he could produce himself or, more likely, by what was available at the time from the actual manufacturer of the parts or the complete gun. Manufacturers often supplied retailers with complete guns which bore the manufacturer's name and serial number on the barrels and action, but a "trade" manufacturer would usually put the retailer's name and serial number on the barrels and the action. The trade manufacturer's initials or trade mark might be put somewhere inside the action, under the barrels or on the fore-end. If a "gunmaker" had a workshop or factory, it was not necessarily an indication that he actually "made" his guns himself. Most of the medium sized firms bought guns "in the white" and stocked, engraved and fitted the "furniture" themselves. Alternatively, the so-called factory might have just "finished" guns or it could simply have been a buying, storage and transhipment office. In any event, to the customer, the retailer or "gunmaker" usually appeared to be the actual maker of every part of the gun.

This last para is perhaps rather better known to this audience, but I include it for completeness.

Tim

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Sidelock
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Originally Posted By: Terry Lubzinski
Another Tolley. This is their "Altro" model which was marketed as a combination waterfowl and live pigeon gun. A 3" BLE circa
1905-10 which is proofed for 4 Tons /in sq.It is alive and well and yesterday afternoon I took it out for some fresh air and it accounted for 8 snow geese.I hope yours gives you similar pleasure.





Very nice gun.

One comment concerning the "tons" proofmarks: They refer to the service pressure of the load to be used in the gun, not the proof pressure. It wasn't until the British switched to metric proofmarks in the 1980's (850 bar etc) that there was a proofmark that actually indicated proof pressure rather than referring to the service load appropriate for the gun, either in terms of "tons per square inch" or actual shot charge.

Joined: Mar 2015
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Guys, having acquired a .577/.500 3-1/8" magnum, I am curious what moulds reloaders here use. The gun came with two old Lyman grease groove moulds, casting 450-grain grease grooves, but I would like to try the original 440-grin smooth paper patch bullets in it. Any suggestions, help, divine intervention most welcome, thanks!
PA


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