doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Strange Belgium? barrel mark on Ithaca NID 4E

Found the stamp on my barrels,

Laurent Lochet-Habran

The �LLH� of Laurent Lochet-Habran has been found on Fox, Baker, Lefever, Crescent, Ithaca (Lewis & Flues with �Smokeless Powder Steel�), NID, Lefever Nitro Special, Lefever M-2 single barrel, and Westernfield Deluxe/Western Arms Long Range, Smith Royal, Armor, London, Crown and Nitro barrels and Hunter Arms Fulton and �Ranger� for Sears. Baker guns may be marked �Nitro Rolled Steel� and Folsom Crescent guns �Fluid Temper Steel�.

Well I'll be a suck egg mule.

Remington offered their ORDNANCE Steel barrel on their John D. Pedersen designed pump regularly. This from the 1909 catalog --



see the bottom of the page. Their catalog offering ORDNANCE Steel barrels on their John M. Browning designed Autoloading Shotgun was sporadic --



Remington Arms Co. only offered Damascus barrels on their Hammerless Double Barrel Shotgun from their introduction in the October 1894 catalog. Both Remington Steel and Ordnance Steel barrels were introduced in the April 1897 catalog. The text states --

"Remington blued steel barrels are manufactured in our own works, and sold at the same price as ordinary Damascus barrels. Guaranteed for nitro powders, and free from all imperfections."

The catalog text doesn't state that Remington made the Ordnance Steel. ""Ordnance" steel is of the highest grade, and is especially recommended for heavy charges of nitro powder. The tensile strength of this steel is 110,000 lbs., and the elastic limit 60,000 lbs., this being greatly in excess of any strain to which shotgun barrels are subjected with reasonable loads of nitro powders."

Thank you Researcher.

OT, but of interest.

H.P Leighly, professor emeritus of Metallurgical Engineering at University of Missouri � Rolla published a study of the steel used in the hull of the RMS Titanic in the January 1998 issue of "Journal of Metals", the publication of the American Institute of Mining, Metallurgical and Petroleum Engineers
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9801/felkins-9801.html

The �acid-lined open hearth� steel used in the construction of the hull, from the steelworks of David Colville and Co., was similar to AISI 1020 but with a slightly higher phosphorus, much higher sulfur, and lower manganese concentration. The tensile strength was 65,000 psi, and the low Mn:S ratio made the metal more brittle (lower impact strength) in the cold temperature.
C - .21%
Mn - .47%
P - .045%
S - .07%
Photomicrographs showed �dirty steel� with both silicate and sulfide (iron sulfide and manganese sulfide) inclusions; slag.

I have been given the impression that Ithaca made their own Damascus barrels and was the sole American maker to do so? Is this still accepted as fact?
Jim

No, They advertised that Bob Edwards was the oldest barrel maker or words to that fact BUT they imported the rough tubes for production guns(danascus and later fluid steel) until sometime between the wars.

Walt: "Uncle Bob" did probably make some Twist barrels long before he was at Ithaca

The June, 1909 Outer's Book, A Magazine of Outdoor Interest had an article about �Uncle Bob� which stated that from 1861-1865 he worked in Brookton, an Ithaca N.Y. suburb, where there was a barrel factory making steel barrels for the U.S. Government, and iron and stub twist barrels for the local gunsmiths and gunmakers of the period. The stub twist barrels were made of horseshoe nails brought in by the country's blacksmiths. �...to the best of his knowledge today he was the only man in the United States working at barrel boring who ever made twist and damascus barrels.�

We also know that John Blaze made Crolle barrels for Dan Wesson, then Laminated Steel for Parker Bros.

(Horace) Smith & Wesson and Daniel B. Wesson



More information here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12y9006Ur7mMCqdeeye89c7L4DQrc2iXR8p4S6OIN1bA/edit

Drew, I know that was claimed and may well have been true. I visited that site and found a partial large grinding stone sticking out of the ground (about 12 to 18 inched diameter when whole. The Edward's family burial site is in the Brooktondale cemetery. My point was meant to say that there is no documentation that I am aware of that the Ithaca Gun Co. ever made in house Damascus barrels supporting their production. The ad (and others) does tend to imply that they did.

We all owe Walt, Dave Noreen, Robert Chambers, Tom Archer, John Davis and many others a great debt for actually traveling to sites, digging through small town newspaper archives and going to libraries to read old sporting magazines. I can sit at my computer with the demanding dog at my feet reviewing digitized documents - a lot easier



Still looking for someone to learn Lis�n Osm�n� and review the metallurgic literature of ancient Turkey

Robert Chambers was very knowledgeable and an asset on this board but he was just such a PITA!!!

So all the main American manufacturers of double barrels shotguns used Belgium tubes whether finished or in the rough throughout their production runs?

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
"How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"
The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity. All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or �tubes� as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

The Belgian gun making industry was centered in Liege, with 189 gun makers in 1891. Barrel factories were primarily in Chaudfontaine, For�t, Fraipont, and especially Nessonvaux in the Vesdre valley. In 1896 an estimated 700 workers produced 300,000 pairs of pattern welded barrels.


Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of Metals
By United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA879&dq
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
The Chairman: Will you state the companies you represent, Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Hunter. The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co.
Senator McCumber: Does the American manufacturer use the unfinished importation?
Mr. Hunter: He uses what are designated in the present bill as �gun barrels rough-bored.� That is what we import.
Senator McCumber: To what extent do you use those?
Mr. Hunter: Entirely.
Senator McCumber: You do not manufacture any of them?
Mr. Hunter: No, sir. We have no facilities for making shotgun barrels.
Senator McCumber: Does any other company make them?
Mr. Hunter: There are a few that make them for themselves only. None are made to be sold. We never have been able to buy any in this country.


As said, Remington would be the exception.

There were some independent rifle barrel makers.

The Iron Age Directory, David Williams Co., 1911
http://books.google.com/books?id=chtaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA390&lpg
Listed the following companies under �Steel, Gun Barrel�
Edgar Allen & Co. Chicago, Ill.
Bethlehem Steel Co., South Bethlehem, Pa.
Carnegie Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Colonial Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Crucible Steel Co. of America, Pittsburgh, Pa
Farist Steel Co., Bridgeport, Ct
Wm. Jessop & Sons, Inc, 91 John St. New York
C. Pardee Works, Perth Amboy, NJ
Thomas Prosser & Son, 26 Platt St. NY
Vanadium Alloys Steel Co., Latrobe, Pa
West Leechburg Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa