doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How to determine English gun grade

Good day gentlmen! I was reading Mr. Hadoke's books, and in them he mentioned That English guns are graded, such as Best, second, and third. He also said that Holland and Holland made (or had made for them) all three grades. What separates the grades, and how would a person tell what grade he is looking? Not specifically Holland but in all older English guns?

Best indicates self-opener side-lock ejector stocked to fences with under-bolts not penetrating bottom or action the so called trigger plate. It will have what they call 100% engraved action with either 'rose and scroll' a la Purdey or more pronounced acantus leaf motif of Holland. The most well known are Holland & Holland Royals and Beesley actioned Purdeys. There is a member on this board who has remarkable system for determining value of English guns based on name associated with specific maker. As you expect name alone counts for thousands of dollars in price difference.
There is well founded suggestion that if one does not know a lot about English gun trade they should pick Woodward side-lock ejector with full coverage engraving, hint.

Thank you for asking the best question ever asked on this forum. As you imply, it isn't all about brand recognition, but brand has a lot to do with it. One of our posters, Don Amos, knows, or professes to know, more about "Tiers" of British guns, but the separation of tiers within brands is a more precise definition of value. Maybe Mr. Hadoke can also comment.

Bespokenness is the primary quality of English guns. Bespoke means built so to suit a particular client's every whim within reason. Best simply means as good as could be made by a particular maker.

Luxury did not define a best gun. Nor was plain finish indicative of a lesser grade. The notion seems strange these days of gold inlays and fantasy engraving. Maybe clients were better informed about the essentials of quality back then.

A prewar sidelock confirmed as best by the makers, had a single trigger, right hand stock, left hand opening lever, non ejector because that is how the original buyer ordered it. He found the right to left opening lever more ergonomic than the usual left to right.

In that world you are who you descend from, net worth, associates you keep what you wear and shoot. What changed is where clothing and guns come from they no longer need to go to Saville Row or London makers Milano and Gardone VT boutiques are acceptable alternatives.

Crusher
I guess this a question of buying the gun, not the name..
I'm no expert, but if I look at a gun dripping with amazing engraving, killer wood, n the wood to metal..& metal to metal fit looked like it grew there together, then its top notch,what ever name is on the rib
If less engraving, lesser wood,then its a lesser grade.
If just barely engraved, with plain wood, its lower grade.
BUT some guns can be of the finest quality with very minimal engraving, but everything else could be perfect inside & out
which doesn't make it a lesser gun,just less ornate, & so would be less expensive to purchase.
I guess you just have to judge them yourself
I guess you have to look closely, & make your own choice.
Its a hard question to answer
But lack of engraving doesn;t mean its not a finea fine gun
I;m sure I'l be toldI'm wrong,lol
cheers
franc

That is not part of that world. It is part of proletarian working class not having enough for the best of the best.

The first replies to this post make it clear that this thread is dead. DEAD. None of the replies relate to the original poster's question.

Thank you for the suggestions. I realize that a Holland Royal is a best grade now, but what about the external hammer guns? Surely there was a best then, and a second grade. I feel sure that overall, a third grade gun will look less finished and feel more "clunky" as it were. And engraving certainly could be a good indication if it was made with engraving. So, for argument sake, how would one determine a best vs second grade Holland from the 1870's? Because if one can tell the difference, it would be easier to find a high quality gun with a lesser known name on the locks.

Well the larger "makers" actually had different serial numbers for different grades (Holland and Holland, W. W. Greener...) so if it falls into the period when that was practiced by those makers then it's easy with the right references (e.g. Brown). But usually of course it isn't so easy. Engraving sometimes corresponds to grade but I've some excellent guns that have nothing but fine border engraving (Horsley was typical here). Fit and finish is the best way to judge but one must have the gun in hand to assess that. Even then the interior may be better for the same level of outer finish. A good rule I think is is any one aspect is "coarse" whether it's the engraving - the choice of wood (grain not necessarily figure), the mechanism then it's a lower grade gun.
Don't rely on just the name. I have seen identical guns, including the engraving, (mid grade) retailed by different "Names" sell for different prices at the same time simply due to the name.
In my limited experience, third grade guns did not receive much engraving. Second grade guns can be as ornate as first but the fit and finish is not quite as fine.

Jeremy