doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How to determine English gun grade

The London bias is the beginning of advertising versus actual quality. Many so called best London were made in Birmingham and proofed and finished in London.

The SLE bias is again tom foolery. Their are marvelous BLE and Round Actions.

And to say provencial makers could not produce equal quality demonstrates a lack of knowledge

I think you are confusing branding with quality

Best? There is no such thing except in the mind of the buyer. The word seems to have been attached primarily by London makers but also by a number of Birmingham's products. It was a marketing term. In the end you'll find the word "Best" is very similar to words like "Conservative" or "Liberal". They mean whatever the hearer wants them to mean.

I suppose if the word were used honestly it would be a statement by the maker that it is the finest they were able to produce when cost was not a limiting factor. (Even this falls short of a definition of the elusive term).

old colonel and Joe Wood are on the money. It's a marketing/branding term, developed by London makers, to try to differentiate their products in a way as to make it difficult for other makers to compete. How do you make a "London Best" if you aren't a London maker?

Don Amos gave me a notion of differentiation in grading and branding. An issue with branding of corporations or towns, guns or anything else is living up to the brand. If it doesn't happen, branding has no meaning.

I like what Bill and Joe said. I'm a hunter. An expensive gun makes no sense for meat. I value tradition and craftsmanship. My two 16s---an 1889 Parker O grade and 1914 Sauer Model 8---are "bests" to me.

In my hands, their balance and craftsmanship seems perfect.

There is an answer to your question, but I promise it is not one simple sentence. My system, as referred to above, is intended to provide a jump-start in understanding of the Brit Gun Trade and the products they produced. The focus is on valuation, but with enough additional information to broaden understanding.

The first step is to understand that value can be estimated from Brand Value level (maker's/vendor's name value), Original Quality grade (nothing to do with the name), and Current Condition level. All makers/vendors could make/order a "best work" gun from within the trade. All master makers well understood the term "best work" and knew which workers were capable of the craftsmanship required for each phase of the gun's making. Grade was built to price point. "London best" denotes a "best work" gun within a certain fashion. There are plenty of "best work" guns that do not fit the "London Best" pattern.

Step two. I define nine levels of Original Quality grade as follows:

OQ1 - Best work SLE

OQ2 - "A" Grade SLE, Greener G-125, Best work SLNE, Extra finish WR Drop-Lock

OQ3 - "B" Grade SLE, Greener G-70, "A" Grade SLNE, Full engraved
WR Drop-Lock


OQ4 - "C" Grade SLE, Greener G-60, "B" Grade SLNE, WR Drop-Lock
min engraving


OQ5 - Border engraved SLE, 1/3 engraved SLNE, 1st quality BLE

OQ6 - Plain SLNE, 2nd quality BLE

OQ7 - Border engraved BLE/1/3 engraved BLNE

OQ8 - Plain BLNE

OQ9 - Farmer's/colonist gun

This is all I have time for tonight. I'll continue with the system tomorrow night and with key points in estimating OQ grade.

DDA

Re the sidelock thing, it is worth remembering the comment by late Gough Thomas re the Dickson Round Action

"it yields nothing, nothing whatsoever, to the finest sidelock ever built"

and bear in mind that Thomas (G.T. Garwood, engineer and gun writer for the Shooting Times) was a lifelong Purdey and Atkins user so he had direct knowledge of the finest sidelock technicalities.

'Best' grade guns used the best materials, workmanship and techniques available at the time.
'Good' grade may have economised a little on material, techniques, wood grade, hours of hand finishing.
One example was one maker whose 'best' guns had chopper lump barrels, whereas other grades had dovetail lump construction, which saved a little cost.
'Best' guns were usually fully bespoke - if the buyer wanted plain (or even no) engraving, that was supplied, but the materials, techniques and workmanship remained the best that was available. Best would also be very carefully fitted and adjusted to the customer to have handling and balance to suit his specific needs.

Engraving is not generally a good guide to what is 'best'. It is a (possibly slightly eccentric) trait in the British character that well executed but fairly plain and 'understated' design has long been preferred my many traditional high end customers.
'London' is an additional 'descriptor' to 'Best' as guns made in Birmingham and Edinburgh (or sometimes elsewhere) could equally well be 'Best' (but not London Best).

Note that Don's system involves "estimating" original quality grade. In some cases, British makers have removed the estimation from the equation. Greener with their numbering system, for example. But here's an example you're quite likely to encounter when trolling the British shotgun market:

After WWII, Webley & Scott came out with their 700 series doubles. All based on the same design, but there were 3 different grades: the basic 700, which you could call grade 3; the 702 (nicer wood, more engraving, drop points) grade 2; and the top of the line 701, grade 1. That does not mean the 701 is a "best" gun, or even a "boxlock best". But it does mean that it's the best of that particular model. They did something similar with the pre-WWII Model 400, but in the case of those guns, they didn't change the model number. Simply called them Model 400, grade 1, 2, or 3.

Other makers referred to Best (or 1st) quality, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Again, best or first in that context does not mean the best gun they could make. Rather, again, the best of that particular model. The most "bling", if you will. Finest engraving, nicest wood and best checkering, etc.

claycrusher 900 wrote "... that English guns are graded, such as best, second, and third." He asked "What separates the grades, and how would a person tell what grade he is looking?"

I can speak accurately on behalf on one of the most inventive London gunmakers as I have studied his guns and have copies of his paperwork; the well respected Frederick Beesley.

Looking at catalogue descriptions the key contemporary separator that claycrusher1900 asks about is price. Thus a Beesley from 1922 could be had for �120 and would be 'best' in every respect, made to measure for the individual client and of superlative quality. Beesley called these guns his "Standard" grade. They were made by his own small team of craftsmen, though of course the locks and barrel tubes were bought in. Beesley himself oversaw this work and carried out a good deal of it himself.

At �75 come the Special Quality. This would be his second grade. He writes that the gun is 'A very high class gun to meet the requirements of those not caring to pay the topmost price, yet desiring a weapon combining selected materials, first rate work, fit of gun, balance and general finish, and is equal to most makers "best" quality.'

Then at �45 there was the Three Quality. This was his third grade. Again, it is best if Beesley himself describes it: '... of the same sound and reliable build as the "Special", but being made on the box action principle which offers facilities for the use of power in its manufacture, enables us to offer it at a price within reach of persons of the most moderate means.' These boxlocks were made superbly for Beesley by John Harper in Birmingham, then sent to the London shop for finishing and fit.

I have refrained from using the earlier late 1800s catalogue I have, since it goes into more detail on the many other types of gun Beesley could provide. I feel that the 1922 catalogue rather more succinctly answers the question about grades differentiation.

With regards to being able to tell what grade one is looking at, that is really a matter of ones own knowledge and experience, I feel.

Tim

more suggested reading:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/british_best_shotguns.htm