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Forums10
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Mar 28th, 2026
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
Bartlett,
My point is that sometimes what we think as a best finish is not over and above what many of the 'provincial' gunmakers achieved.
The name on the gun, be it London, Birmingham, or Provincial, has nothing to do with the gun's Original Quality grade. Each gun must be judged independent of maker's/vendor's name.
Often they provided the guns in white for who we consider to have produced the 'best ' guns.
Best guns were often/usually something of a trade effort.
It is not uncommon to see a 'provincial' gun that equals a 'best' gun in every way but is disregarded without the high grade name behind it.
The name has value, but does not affect the OQ of the gun. It is a common mistake to try to judge gun grade based on maker's name. It doesn't work because most/all (with the possible exception of Boss) sold a wide variety of gun grades. Purdey's sold boxlocks and Midland sold some magnificent best work SLE's. For grade, the gun must stand on it's own.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
Good discussion.
My point on engraving was to execution rather than form. Clearly we will be unable to agree on grades for form. But I think we can agree that an apprentice's execution would be at a lower quality grade than a master's for identical form. Thus we have grades of execution.
Grading engraving execution is tough. However, I think our eyes see things our brains have difficulty completely defining. This is the "know it when I see it" situation.
Only a good many hours of study of engraving will yield a basis for grading. Study of auction catalogs is good practice and may give a basis for fairly "course" grading.
DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 15 |
I owned a Purdey B quality 16ga. Early hammerless sidelock nonejector. Nice enough gun, but it was not a best. Larry, not to be pedantic, but a "B" grade certainly is not going to be a best gun - sidelock or not, Purdey or not. DDA
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,215 Likes: 57
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,215 Likes: 57 |
Rocketman,
Thank you. You substantiate what I have been endeavouring to say in a verbose manner. And perhaps to sum it up in a rather crude manner, there are objective points with which we can grade guns but more oft than not subjectivity precludes it.
Last edited by Tamid; 01/12/17 01:55 AM.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 593
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 593 |
there are objective points with which we can grade guns but more oft than not subjectivity precludes it.
If we were all completely honest to ourselves there would be no dog fights or horse races. We all have the best dog & the fastest horse & it does make life interesting. O.M
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,550 Likes: 116
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,550 Likes: 116 |
I think the whole subject of grading is tenuous.In general classifiying guns as best ,second best etc. dose not go far enough . Compare a Boss or purdy to a Fredrick Williams ,you would say that the Boss was best . Not so . The gun made by Williams was his "best" gun ,so the term become subjective .
The range of guns produced in Britain was so great ,from the finest to the cheapest each type would have to be graded on its merits .You could not compare a boxlock to a sidelock , a hammer to a hammerless .
The name of course counts for a great deal , yet guns with a relatively unknown names can equal in quality the best London makes . Condition is also a factor , is a 1890' london gun with poor barres and a broken stock any better than a 1960's Webley 700 in good condition ?
Generalisation can only be applied with discretion and is subjective to what is being compared .
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I also own a Scott sidelock back action, with crystal indicators and top lever cocking. Tamid; Twice in this post you referred to Top Lever Cocking. Are you saying the act of pushing the top lever over to open the gun also cocks the hammers. Although I have never owned either of the guns you mentioned here I was under the impression they were both Barrel Cockers. The top lever would seem to me to be a bit short on leverage to provide easy cocking.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 159
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 159 |
Bartlett,
That is the sheep in wolf's clothes that can be purchased at a modest price. Yes exactly. That is one of the benefits I find in collectiing provincial (non-London - non Birmingham) guns. I could not afford what I have if they were engraved "Big Name". In many cases that's where they came from but the name is different. I have a couple of "Purdey" guns (in patent marking and quality) with other "makers" names on them that were rather affordable. Some of the provincials (Horsley) were "best" in their own right. Some of the first boxlocks (first year or so of the patent) are real stunners. Smythe sold some particularly high end pieces as did W. Golden and even lesser knowns such as Patrick. These are beautiful in form, fit and function and very good value for the money. I have seen at auction identical guns.... literally identical down to the engraving pattern and condition .. sell at signficantly different prices , almost certainly simply because of the different names engraved on the action and rib. Jeremy
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,215 Likes: 57
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,215 Likes: 57 |
"Are you saying the act of pushing the top lever over to open the gun also cocks the hammers."
Yes that is correct. The top lever acts to open the breech and cock the hammers at the same time. On both guns the lever is much longer than on normal top lever guns, providing enough leverage. Sorry I have no pics at present because my day to day computer had a melt down and I am in the process of a deep restore.
I did have one gunsmith comment that he wouldn't want to shoot a round of clays with that mechanism as he expected his thumb wouldn't take it. I've never shot clays but a morning of 25 released pheasant caused me no problem.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,575 Likes: 182 |
I owned a Purdey B quality 16ga. Early hammerless sidelock nonejector. Nice enough gun, but it was not a best. Larry, not to be pedantic, but a "B" grade certainly is not going to be a best gun - sidelock or not, Purdey or not. DDA Just reinforcing the point that Purdey made guns other than bests, Don.
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