doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Possibility of Limited Lead Authorization

For those who have expressed some curiosity, duck hunting is regulated in Victoria by the Wildlife Act 1975, and subordinate to that by the Game Regulations 2012. R.32 specifically deals with "toxic" (elsewhere defined as anything other than a list of things such as steel, bismuth, tungsten etc) shot. Here are the specific clauses:

32 Use of toxic shot
(1) A person must not use toxic shot to hunt, take or destroy ducks.
Penalty: 20 penalty units.
(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to a person who is hunting, taking or destroying, or intending to hunt, take or destroy ducks, in the open season for duck, if the person is using a firearm that is a muzzle-loading, Damascus steel or twist-barrelled shotgun.

This regulation came in some years ago in a phased manner. If I recall correctly, things like sub-gauges and private land retained lead for a little while longer before being phased out. Our local Vintagers - some of them of some standing and seniority in our shooting community, and reasonably well connected - were instrumental in retaining lead's use through damascus barrels, reasoning that so few people would take advantage of such a clause as to cause negligible environmental effect, and that most other allowable options were unsuitable in damascus barrels.

Lead remains in general use for most other forms of hunting and pest control.

Happy to dig out more information if people wish... Unless their communication style reminds me of my ex-wife... then I'll be triggered and have to retreat to my safe space...(!)

Please, please tell me your safe space is the local pub or my faith in Australia will be shattered forever.


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King, I had to take a long pull off the potato "vodka" jug and put in my Jefferson Airplane 8-track to figure that out. That was heavy, man.

Thanks for that information cadet. Very interesting. The idea that such a small segment of shooters of vintage Damascus, Twist, or muzzle-loading guns could get an exemption runs perfectly counter to what Larry suggested earlier.

But since Larry is always right about everything, are you sure you aren't mistaken? Just kidding. Don't go running to any safe space just yet. And please tell us what getting hit with 20 Penalty Units for violating the law means.

I can imagine that such an exemption might cause a surge in demand for those dangerous Damascus barreled guns, and even perhaps a market for printing faux Damascus patterns on fluid steel guns. Has there been any outcry or whining about this exemption causing poisoning in waterfowl? If guys using Damascus, Twist, or muzzle-loading guns are flinging lead shot into the environment, then a lot of ducks, geese, raptors, and eagles should be sick and dying since the anti-lead junk science frequently claims that only a couple pellets can or will be fatal.

I am not in denial that lead can be a toxin... as is tungsten and bismuth, but the evidence I've looked at strongly indicates that the need for lead ammunition bans are grossly overblown and most likely a ploy to undermine shooting, hunting, and gun ownership. There are so many other sources of lead in forms that are much more bio-available, and thus much more likely to be the real cause of any major problems. But don't try telling Larry that or he will cry to Dave to lock the thread, and then pretend to ignore you.

Thanks also cadet, c'mon, ex?

I'd also like to know what happens when you get penalty points, and how many are you allowed. I think though that it begs the strategy to just try not to get caught. Use the shooters, carry a few for show, and eat a few penalty points here and there? Would someone get checked for gun registration at the same time as an ammo check?

You guys spend your whole life thinking there are rules. There ain't.


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Don't worry. Be happy.

Cadet, Thank you for the input

Lonesome, there are rules, or we would not be talking about possibly getting a lead exemption.

Life is full of rules both natural and man made, many of both are only honored in their breech

cadet, from your post it seems regulations favouring lead in a particular category were phased in subtley and slowly with help from persons with senior and distinguished public and private responsibilities.

Since Australians have a reputation for not doing things by half measures, and Victoria is densely populated and small compared to the other states, I'm anxious to know how long it took and if your regulations were copied by other states.

Your mention of phasing and influence in the right places makes me wonder how they made the case over time that hunters were trustworthy and their small numbers in a particular category warranted an exemption.

Penalty units are the amount of fine you will have to pay. So 20 times the basic unit is your fine. The Victoria penalty unit is $155.46 according to what I can find on the net. So 20 times that is a not small amount. Call it $3110. And that is Alstralian dollars so $3110A is $2369 in US dollars.

The penalty unit is an interesting concept. It ties the fine to inflation. Defining the fine as so many penalty units allow the fines to go up as prices do and allow the fine to be adjusted up or down based on which province the crime occurred.

Thanks for that KY Jon. So essentially, Grouse Guy would get fined differently for poaching a deer the day before the season opened on posted land in Montana than he would if he poached a deer the day before the season opened on posted land in New York.

Maybe Trump could use that Penalty Unit oncept to fine illegal aliens and officials of Sanctuary Cities that harbor illegals. I also wonder what the Statute of Limitations is for illegally crossing the U.S.- Canada Border with a pistol in your airplane, and how many Penaly Units that would hit King Brown with? We could use the proceeds to clean up poisonous carcinogenic tungsten shot, and bismuth shot which compromises the immune system. Or to fix the teeth of people who bite into steel shot.

Fines may also be determined by severity or prevalence of the misdemeanour: jacking deer, out of season, fishing without license etc. Some years ago I dropped in on a buddy, a businessman, in a neighbouring province. His staff said he wasn't there, and I asked when he would be back. Some baleful looks all around until they said he wouldn't be back for a long while. He had been convicted for jacking deer. I've known murder and manslaughter convictions of less time. Buddy went on to become mayor.

PS---Re keith's above. I've left a trail of minor misdemeanours across Canada and the US over the years. The .22 Ruger pistol was in my survival kit. The time was 40 years ago of crossing borders without customs checks in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, upper New York states. Taking liquor across illegally would have been considered more seriously than having a pistol (later Savage .22/20ga Model 24) for survival. On the tarmac in Buffalo, I saw customs confiscate an American's Cessna twin 310 for bringing in one bottle of undeclared rum from St. Pierre et Miquelon.