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Forums10
Topics38,939
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Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133 |
Agree on the Robust, canvasback: More or less the Stevens of France, but a much better gun.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895 |
Larry, A run of the mill English A & D boxlock is a better gun than just about any American double. Agree with James that the same is true of a Robust, or a Costo. Or, an R10. Also agree that without those tarrifs, the American trade in guns would have went to bicycles, car parts, typewriters, and chain saws, before it did. And the world would have been better for it.
Best, Ted
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,119 Likes: 524
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,119 Likes: 524 |
Agree on the Robust, canvasback: More or less the Stevens of France, but a much better gun. It's been years ago on another thread that some disagreed with the Stevens comparison of the Robust. The observation was that the Robust was the M21 of France. Gil
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895 |
Klunk, RIP, always considered the Stevens a better gun than the model 21.
Best, Ted
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133 |
Larry, A run of the mill English A & D boxlock is a better gun than just about any American double. Agree with James that the same is true of a Robust, or a Costo. Or, an R10. Also agree that without those tarrifs, the American trade in guns would have went to bicycles, car parts, typewriters, and chain saws, before it did. And the world would have been better for it.
Best, Ted Sorry, Ted. Having owned plenty of both, can't agree with that. American doubles, in general, were built more like tools designed for hard use. Long after we'd converted to stout 2 3/4" loads in our doubles on this side of the pond, the Brits stuck with their 2 1/2" standard. If they'd tried to do what we did, the majority of their doubles would have been built like their waterfowl guns . . . but they weren't. What do you suppose would have happened to Brit doubles--or, for that matter, Robusts--if they'd been submitted to the torture test (a whole bunch of proof loads) that John Olin fed the Model 21 (and all the other classic American doubles of that period)? Our doubles, in general, were overbuilt. Theirs, by our standards, were underbuilt. Worked with their loads, but try punching the chambers on a 2 1/2" Brit 12 and then feeding it Super-X loads for the next few decades. Shouldn't have been done to short-chambered American 12's, but it has been . . . and most of them handled the overload because they were overbuilt. In terms of handling qualities in the field, I'll take your average Brit 12 bore game gun over just about any American classic 12. But if I'm going to shoot 3 3/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz loads as a steady diet--or maybe even hotter stuff--I'll take the American gun. The fact that so many of them are still out there and still shooting reliably, when the last of them went out of production shortly after WWII, shows there's nothing really wrong with the basic designs. Not to mention the fact that you can pick up an American classic for less money than a basic Brit A&D in similar condition. I just sold a nice, solid Ithaca NID 12ga for $700. I can't imagine being able to buy a basic Brit 12 in similar condition for that kind of money. Spanish version of the A&D from Uggie, yes . . . but they're also more in the direction of being overbuilt for heavier, modern loads.
Last edited by L. Brown; 02/11/17 09:45 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895 |
Larry, The 1 1/4 oz load wasn't needed in England, and, truth be told, wasn't needed the great majority of the time, here, either. I use them when it gets cold, temps around zero start affecting shotshell performance. I go right back to 1 1/8th oz if it warms up a bit. I never give it much thought, but, the Federal Pheasants Forever load is likely outside of what my Silver Snipe is proofed for. Not my R10, however. Using the English gun, as intended, would cover 90% of what goes on here in the states. Maybe 95%. All Olin's test really proved to me was that ALL the guns he tested were more than strong enough for what they were intended for. I'd also be curious to see what would happen if a variety of American designs had visited the French proof house back in the day, and been submitted for triple proof. Would they hold together? Hard to say. Seems like it is a lot easier to find an American "project" gun at a show, than anything English. Anecdotal, for sure, but, I wish I had a buck for every broken Yank double I'd ever seen at a show in my life. While it won't likely be shooting any longer than your NID that you sold, I'd much rather have that 30" Webley 12 that is over on the for sale section. Most people would, I'm thinking, which explains the price difference. A gun can be a tool and be beautiful, as well, as that gun so well illustrates. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=471583#Post471583Best, Ted
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I'll just stick to my Lefevers, they've been going strong for more than 100 years, have better lines in my eye, & "If" it ever does wear off face the hinge can be tightened with the twist of a screwdriver. You can have all of my share of them W&S 700's.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895 |
I'll just stick to my Lefevers, they've been going strong for more than 100 years, have better lines in my eye, & "If" it ever does wear off face the hinge can be tightened with the twist of a screwdriver. You can have all of my share of them W&S 700's. How many NIDs do you have? The Lefevers are generally good looking guns. I've seen bunches with 3", or more, of drop, however. That doesn't work out so well for me. Best, Ted
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 288 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 288 Likes: 7 |
Comparing an extra light British gun for 2 1/2 inch cartridges to heavier American working guns is unreasonable. Compare British waterfowling guns to equivalent weight American guns. You will then find their superior durability.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,990 Likes: 895 |
Comparing an extra light British gun for 2 1/2 inch cartridges to heavier American working guns is unreasonable. It is. But, that said, I'm pretty certain the listed 700 is 2 3/4" proofed. Still superior, even to Larry's NID, which, isn't Larry's anymore. Best, Ted
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