|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
4 members (eeb, John E, grant1907, 1 invisible),
268
guests, and
6
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,620
Posts547,065
Members14,429
| |
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99 |
uh nudge...one of the great things about our society, is the fact that we can choose to do business via any rules we like, so long as those rules are within the law...and as for firearms transactions in particular, it is better to be safe than sorry...
besides, most law abiding and responsible gun owners are quite willing to go thru the background check process...because they know it's purpose is to keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people...nothing more and nothing less...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10 |
Ed Good,
If its a matter a small degree of CYA, like asking for ID, I completely underatand that. As was said above, no dealer wants 'that' phone call from the authorities.
As for keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous people, well, we all want that. Thats why they HAVE to be cleared for AR-15's, etx. But with respect to guns which we KNOW are antiques...consider who buys these.
- Nudge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 356 Likes: 34
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 356 Likes: 34 |
I've dealt with some auction houses that require the gun to go through a FFL because they can not definitively prove that the gun was made prior to 1898 due an absence of records that have disappeared as has happened to many English makers. Unfortunately that happens and as you say they can't be blamed. Not much to be done in that case other than proceed through the full FFL process. With regards to records there are occassional guns I don't pursue because I can't find records that would "prove" to the ATF or other parties the age of the gun. Generally I find that if the maker is listed in Brown's Vol. 1 - 3 , then I've been able to get either an ATF sign off or import as an antique. I've found ATF also accepts published articles on gunmakers covering model ages. Not much help if a third party is insistent but it might be helfpful for those that can be persuaded. As an aside, permitting and antique/curio&relics designation and permits are is something the exporters I use in the UK generally check as they seem to require it be confirmed as part of their export permitting regardless of the designation in the UK. A decade ago some would just ship an antique direct but no longer. Paperwork is now required but in the long term is just a hassle not a problem. Funny to sign off on official declarations that I will not use the guns in the assembly of nuclear weapons, as if anyone smuggling such material would be honest, but that's the way it is. Oddities occur for instance with the purchase of damascus barrels which are still handled as "firearms" in the UK with the requisite RFD transfers required. Jeremy I can think of a numbers of states, that even if Federal law allowed me to ship an antique to someone, I would still go through an FFL because of potential complications related to the state law. CA,HI, IL, NJ, MD, MA, NY & CT are most of the states to be extra careful with.
I have become addicted to English hammered shotguns to the detriment of my wallet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99 |
well nudge, shirley you would agree that a sawed off double gun is certainly intimidating and potentially deadly to store clerks and others likely to be victimized by armed criminals...and that as a drive by execution weapon, nothing is superior to a sawed off 12 gauge, loaded with 00 buck...shirley you would also agree that a shotgun made prior to 1899 is just as deadly as one made after 1898...
Last edited by ed good; 02/27/17 10:51 PM.
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10 |
Ed Good,
If someone buys an antique double from you, and subsequently saws it shorter...please tell me by what clairvoyance you are able to judge at the time of sale? Remember too, sawed off isnt illegal everywhere, so long as its 18.5+. Also, GOOD guys use sawed off guns for defense, too.
Buy and sell as the law prescribes. If someone seems shady, then by all means CYA and make them do an FFL transfer. Of course, that judgment only works if they are standing front of you...not if they're at a distance on the receiving end.
Im not saying a dealer isnt within his right to play it safe. But let that at least be based on something a little more hair raising than "I dont know them." Im going out on a limb and assuming theres a slightly larger number of people in the world that you dont know, than you do.
- Nudge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99 |
nudge, there is no clairvoyance involved...just trying to do business as a responsible adult...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I can't really recall having ever heard anyone accuse the Government of using sound, sane & reasonable Judgement in setting up the 1968 gun law. Its pure intention was to get a foot in the door for the purpose of pushing that door further open toward the goal of total gun bans on private individuals. Fortunately some toes were stomped in the process & a bit of the hazzle was done away with, such as ammo etc, but the foot it still there. The door wasn't as easy to push open as had been assumed & the gap has not widened much. I'm for stomping them toes even harder & kicking that foot totally back out the door.
If I tried to buy from you a gun which was known & verified to be a pre 1899 & you insisted on me going to the hassle & expense of a check I would tell you where to "Stick IT" & be perfectly willing to assist you in the process if needed. The US Constitution does say I am "Innocent" until proven Guilty & you can't prove I'm Guilty.
The 1968 gun law says a pre 1899 gun is "Not" to be put on the books.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99 |
piper, we all have the right to do business or not do business, depending on the terms of the deal...and our conscience...
Last edited by ed good; 02/28/17 09:13 AM.
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,003 Likes: 405
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,003 Likes: 405 |
The issue from a dealers perspective is the bound book. We are required to log guns in and out on a daily basis. Once a gun is logged in there is no provision I know of to log it out as "antique". If any of you have ever been through an ATF audit, I have, you understand that your goal as a dealer is to not end up with any violations in your bound book. Yes it can be more costly for a customer but I am not willing to take the risk. I import things regularly from the UK. Once they arrive I can tell some of them are antiques. It does not matter to me though because they came in on a form 6 listed as a firearm and are in my books as such. How others conduct business is completely up to them but this is a point I am not willing to argue with the ATF. I sympathize with a buyers point of view but believe in picking your battles in life as well. My pockets are not deep up enough to challenge the feds on this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 99 |
and another issue from the dealers perspective is to conduct business in a responsible manner and with a clear conscience...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
|
