doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Holts Auction Results.

I've not yet tried to buy a gun in Europe and get it home. I will be looking on my next trip to St Chamond - Saint-Etienne area. But I have shipped well more than a dozen guns home from Afghanistan...or rather mailed them. The drill up to about 2011 was simple. If you bought a gun manufactured before 1898, you mailed it home from the APO... Actually if you flew commercial you could check it in your baggage and no questions asked (as I did with an old hammer wall-gun double shotgun with Persian inscriptions on the brass bands around the barrels). The pre-1898 reg was liberally interpreted. Because the Enfield was designed in 1892, a lot of SMLE Enfields made in the 1930's found their way back. That's US law.

I brought back a long Lee - stamped 1901 but allowed in by the provost marshal Lieutenant who had to chop off.

About 2011 some brigadier up in Bagram decided he had to screw with the troops so he required any center fire gun no matter the age to be authorized by ATF. This included Martini-Henry's and Snider-Enfields. I shipped a bunch of both and some 1853 percussion cap Enfields (no ATF approval needed) back the the USA (Latter are loved by the Civil War - War Between the States -War of Northern Agression reenactors). ATF informed me that reproductions are not allowed into the USA but said the Afghan Pashtun copies are so good they can't tell the difference. But they tightened up on the manufacture date - not "designed before" but "made before." (in fact there was a fellow here wondering if he could prove an EM Reilly was made before 1898 - I commented and figure the above was the reason): See SXS 40 post on 6th page of the EN Reilly line:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=482372&page=6

So I'm wondering if you bought say a 1897 Boss, theoretically if the Brits would allow it, you could just check it in your luggage and Customs wouldn't say a word. I might explore this when I go to France this fall. The kicker comes when you have to a have a "license" or "permit" to buy in the first place in UK or France..

Pushtun gun factory north of the Kohat Pass...with a fake Holland and Holland:

Amazing!

This thread actually went from discussing the topic, Holts Auction Results, to a Post about a Pushtun gun factory making fake H & H's.

I've seen some threads go sideways before but this is truly a "jumping the shark" moment.

Dog, I humbly apologize for jumping the shark. Here were my thought processes - helped by a second two fingers of Best American agricultural concoction:
1) several commentators mentioned spending up to $1,500 to get a gun bought at a UK auction back to the US.
2) I questioned this expense and mentioned several ATF regs with which I'm familiar
-- you can bring a gun made before 1898 back in your luggage
-- it can't be a reproduction (unless it's really good).
And gave examples.

Sorry to offend.

Unfortunately for you the word 'Antique' differs in the U.K. With breech loading rifles and shotguns they must be pre 1939 and in what is classed as an obsolete calibre. All muzzle loaders made prior to 1939 and pistols pre 1918 and in an obsolete calibre. The British Home Office publish a list of obsolete calibres which I think is somewhere online. All shotguns and rifles, regardless of vintage, if in a current calibre do not have antique status. So, a 12 bore made in 1863 is not an antique but a 24 bore made in 1938 is. In other words you could buy an antique shotgun here in the U.K. without restriction and fall foul of the law when you got it back to the U.S. where it is not an antique. So, not just two countries divided by a common language but by odd laws as well. Lagopus.....

Lagopus, those are good thoughts and examples. Some years ago, when Parcel Force [British Mail System] quit sending guns of any kind, I could no longer buy a British antique [American Standards] and have it mailed to my door in the U.S. , without a Form 6 here, or with a Form 6 if required here. Since then, guns had to be shipped here by Freight Companies and the resultant cost was change from $2-300 per gun to $700 or more. On top of that the Freight Company would send the gun from England to an airport here that had a Customs service. Once I had to make a 6 hour round trip to a Customs Service in Montana in the mid of winter to pick up my gun made in 1869.

Is there any possible justification for that cost ?
What if the parcel contained plumbing fittings ?
Point being that it is only a parcel of whatever size & weight.
O.M

You do realize people are involved on both sides of the pond, packing, shipping, arranging both import and export permits and clearing customs?

These are not pipe fittings and therefore require extra working importing and exporting them. It costs money to be in business and every person involved in every step needs to make a profit. Extra and undo Government regulations? You bet. Do I like it? Not in the least. Are these the rules I am required to play by? Indeed they are. My brokerage fees and delivery from the airport alone usually run in excess of 700$ per shipment. That includes nothing on the other end, no shipping or profit just inland freight and customs clearance. The cost of importing a gun has increased dramatically since the 90's. That increased import cost is easily offset by the favorable exchange rate and low demand for doubles in the UK. No one has to like these regulations by they are the new normal as is the increased cost. Not that huge of a deal in my eyes. I'm still buying regularly.

Apparently you know nothing about the import or export of firearms and the regulatory hurdles that must be met.

Argo44,
The rules for Active Duty Military are drastically different than those for Civilians(other than government employed civilians, which are somewhere between). The 68 Gun Control Act allowed active military to import 3( otherwise legal) guns with very little trouble, essentially with approval of "Military Customs". I did this from Viet Nam, and Germany. Later, as a Dept. of the Army Civilian, I was allowed to import them with an IRS form 6a, which was essentially an import permit, in my own name. A normal civilian must go through an authorized importer, who has to make a living. Of course, after my time in and around the military, things got screwed up by the Clinton and Obama administrations and some local Commanders put in place by these administrations.
Mike

Well, I wasn't military in Afghanistan - I was a civilian contractor with base privileges. But my point is that if it's made before 1898, you don't need anything. I couldn't bring those Martini Henry's back in the plane because it was a military contracted plane. However, theoretically, on a civilian flight, I could just check it and customs wouldn't have anything to say about it. I did this once with a gun I bought in Quetta, Pakistan. And I discussed this once with an ATF guy in Martinsburg itself via Tie line with the requirement for ATF paperwork for center-fire weapons first was instituted.

So out of Afghanistan, in lieu of carrying them back, I mailed them from the APO.. The drill was 1) take the gun to the Provost Marshall with ATF clearance (after 2011). Show him/her the gun - they made out paperwork in 4 copies. 2) take the gun and paperwork to the APO - show it to the post master and then wrap it at the APO so they see that say an RPG or MG-42 isn't being substituted for the gun on the paperwork; They'd then stamp every crevice where the tape was with dozens of stamps. A few weeks later it arrived at the house...dozens of those guns were sent back with no limit.

As I said the re-enactor crowd really got into the Pashtun Enfields and as a result the price in Kabul for a muzzle loader went up from about $95 to near $500 in one year. I've seen at least one Pashtun muzzle loading Enfield in a Civil War antique shop in Fredericksburg with Confederate stamps on it but a sub-continent serial number being advertised as an authentic Confederate Enfield.

Now I last mailed guns back in 2012. But my feeling is the process is still the same. If you buy a pre-1898 gun abroad and can get it out of Europe...you can check it as luggage and bring it back yourself. Call ATF...I may still have a name and number and talk to the guy, I still have copies of the paperwork and can post it if anyone thinks it helpful.

1) Generic ATF Form with approval (ATF approval for pre 1898 centerfire weapons required after 2011 in Afghanistan).



Along with photos including SN's of the gun(s):



3) This was the form issued by the Provost Marshall to send it back via APO. Again, this is needed only for the APO: