doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1-ounce loads in light 20-bore Darne?

I'm heading to northeast New York in a couple weeks to hang out with an old Coast Guard buddy and give my young cocker some quality time in pretty good grouse country. One of the guns I'll be bringing along is my 1970s 20-gauge Darne R15. It has 65-cm (~25.6") barrels choked .005" and .020" and weighs 5 pounds 9 ounces. I'd prefer a bit less choke in the left barrel, but apart from that the gun seems like an ideal grouse and woodcock gun. It is certainly fast and handy in heavy cover.

I've tended to respect the "96" and "square load" conventions and generally shot nothing heavier than 7/8 ounce from this gun, but I see lots of 1-ounce 20-gauge game loads in 2.75 length. I'm not overly concerned about either felt recoil or chamber pressure in this triple-proofed 20, but I wonder if I'd be risking wood damage firing 1-ounce loads in a 5.75-pound gun. I see quite a few old Darnes for sale with fissures in the wood and assume it reflects overly hot or heavy loads out of these light guns (even with the mythical disques obturateurs). Anyone have thoughts or experience to share?

Bill

bill: your gun was not designed to shoot one ounce loads...better to stick with ammo gun was designed to shoot...

besides, huntable populations of grouse are pretty much a memory only, in the northeast these days...some pockets of birds are still left in northern maine...otherwise pretty much just a memory now...

if you do flush a bird in ny, dont shoot it...it could be one of the last ones...

Per http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html

20g 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. = 1210 fps in a 5.75# gun = 19.1 ft. lbs

20g 1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. = 1220 fps in a 5.75# gun = 23.9 ft. lbs. recoil

12g 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. = 1220 fps in an 8# gun = 25 ft. lbs.

I agree...why over stress an old fragile stock. If you want some more umph in your second shot do what we do down south on wild quail: put a load of 7/8 oz 6s in that second barrel and take the long shot thru the trees!

There are lots of old guns, Darnes included, that have cracks in the stock. If the stock is loose on your Darne, email me, and I help you get it tight. I think that is critical to keeping them from cracking.

But, a 70s vintage Darne isn't that old. If it were me, I'd use whatever I had on hand. Do you expect to load and shoot more than 5-10 rounds a day? That is a pretty good day of hunting, in my part of the world. I suspect your 20, could handle that level of use, with those loads.

I have never been sold on the benefits of obturator discs on the higher grade Darnes, outside of the fact they are a pretty neat piece of machine work. I've seen all manor of things claimed for them, reduced recoil, reduced shell setback, longer life, world piece, yada, yada, yada. My sub 6 lb. Darnes let me know when they have gone off. It is hard to escape physics, for the most part, and I am OK with that.

Do enjoy your trip. I came into the oddest thing some time ago, a free couple boxes of Remington Express 20 gauge 2 3/4" magnums, in, of all things, 7 1/2 shot.
I intend to use them in my Darne, or my Richland 3" 20.

They were free. Good enough reason for me.


Best,
Ted

Ed,
Do tell me, what ammunition was a 1970s vintage Darne 20 gauge designed to shoot?

It was triple proofed at 18,000 psi.

Where do you get your information, Ed?


Best,
Ted

Ed's into game bird survey and population management also I see.

Should you hand load 20's, Alliant shows a one ounce load using the AA hull, 20/28, and the RXP20 wad.

I shave a grain and a half off what they publish and the load runs 1130 fps which puts it at about 20 FP free recoil on Drew's chart there.

I can't tell it from a factory skeet load recoil wise.

The idea of 1 oz. in a 20 is for density, and lower velocity helps to keep the fliers down. Manages recoil too. Winner, winner.

The grouse population in the Champlain Valley has been making a bit of a comeback lately. We'll be on 500 acres of family land--hardwoods with numerous 5-30 acre clearcuts and no hunting pressure recently. I was up there last thanksgiving and the locals reported quite a few flushes encountered while harvesting sugar or scouting deer. But you're right Ted, 10 flushes worth firing at per day would be pretty hot grouse shooting!

No looseness at all on the R15. Geoff Gournet went through it in 2016 with a full strip clean and adjustment and pronounced it ready to go.

Drew, thanks for running the numbers. I went through a similar exercise and concluded that the physical forces generated by a 1-ounce load at MV of 1150-1220 from a 5.75 gun are well within the ranges routinely encountered by pheasant hunters, waterfowlers, and pigeon shooters using "standard" 12-gauge loads in guns designed expressly for those sports.

Having said all that, what I have on hand is a couple flats of B&P Competition One shells in 8 and 7.5. That's likely what I'll be using in the Darne. I'll have a 6-pound MF Ideal 16 along as well and plenty of 1-ounce shells for that. Don't worry, Ed, I'm not much of a threat to the grouse population. If we get a few flushes and I can keep Gilley in range, I'll call the trip a stunning success!

Bill

You will be fine. Wish I could make a trip like that myself

Thanks, Jones. I don't handload, but I like your thinking! Estate has a 20-gage 1-0unce load moving at 1165 fps. Plugging those numbers into the calculator Dr. Hause linked to yield recoil energy of 21.6 fp. The 7/8-oz 20 gauge NSI "target" loads sold by my gun club have MV of 1275 fps and an estimated recoil energy of 20.5 fp. Now that is a load I've shot 50 rounds in one go. I may pick up a box ot two of the Estate or other relatively low-velocity 1-ouncers just to see how they feel and pattern in the Darne.

Bill