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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,016 Likes: 1817
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,016 Likes: 1817 |
............facing a buyer of a new double gun today? Is it price, or getting the options he wants, is it simply finding the right gun?
My opinion is that the very biggest problem a new doublegun buyer faces is that of regulation. I am a bit of a perfectionist about regulation. I have read writers who propose that as low as 50% "overlap" (their words) is acceptable. That is totally unacceptable to me. Their idea is that, if the patterns of the two barrels are not perfectly overlapping it doesn't matter, because no shooter is good enough to perfectly center the bird in the pattern everytime anyway. That is an anathema to me. What if you are "off" on the wrong side? A miss results, that should have been a hit with a regulated gun, or worse, a cripple.
Another reason that this is the number one problem, IMO, is that regulation cannot be checked, in almost all cases, until after you've bought the gun. Remember the 3-day NON-FIRING policies? You can walk into a gun show, or gun shop, and find the "perfect" gun, shoulder it to see if the dims are close to suitable, drop in snap caps and test the triggers, etc. but, you cannot test it for regulation.
I built a pattern plate about a year ago, and it tells the tale. There are waaaay more doubles floating around that are not regulated than most would believe. What's the big deal? Nothing, unless you're a serious shooter who likes to hit what he shoots at.
SRH
Last edited by Stan; 12/11/17 11:14 PM.
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,020 Likes: 71
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,020 Likes: 71 |
Stan, what's your method for checking regulation at your pattern plate? Thanks
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 405 Likes: 76
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 405 Likes: 76 |
I agree completely that poor regulation should be more of a concern than it is. Actually, I think most doublegun shoppers have no idea this problem exists and they believe both barrels will hit smack dap center always. Most shooters never pattern their gun and because as SRH states, they can't until they have laid down their money. That may be best, at least they'll think it was the bird's skill not wasted money.
I think if more people knew about the regulation issue more pumps and semis would be sold and though the prices would rise, even more, the regulation issue would get better. Maybe?
Probably why IC is so popular too!
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,893 Likes: 651
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,893 Likes: 651 |
Stan what distance are you checking convergence? Most check POI at 16 yards because the math is easier and patterns still small and well defined. Since a double that is set up to converge at a certain distance it will also cross over at a longer distance the point where the barrels converge is important to me. If you have a gun which has 75% convergence at 20 yards does it overlap by 40? Maybe the 50:50 at 20 yards is 75:75 and 30 and 100:100 at 40 yards. What I don't want is for convergence to be too close for any gun I'm going to be using for long crossing shots. Don't want to be shooting behind a bird because my right barrel is set up to place my pattern two feet to the left at 40 yards. I can miss enough birds with out help of my gun.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
I found the right gun for my current hunting. A pump.
An old beater Model 12 that is mechanically sound. Trying to find a old beater Model 21 for a decent price was impossible.
You can't test regulation prior to purchase.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,572 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,572 Likes: 165 |
Well . . . you're not going to cross-fire with a pump or auto, for sure. But does that guarantee the gun shoots where you aim it? If we assume that the barrel is perfectly straight on a pump, auto, or single barrel, then why do we bother checking where a rifle shoots? After all, the spread of a shotgun pattern is going to compensate for some degree of impact error. In other words, while you may miss (or just chip) a target or a bird you should have hit had it been just right, you'll also hit some you shouldn't have hit had it patterned dead center. You don't have that same margin of error with a rifle, but you still check.
The only problem a double can have that a single barreled shotgun can't have is cross firing.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,710 Likes: 346
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,710 Likes: 346 |
I think the biggest problem is the price, particularly for new. A person can't even decide what particulars are important for them if they can't afford the entry fee.
I've never tried them, but I've wondered if anyone has found any predictable correlation between optic bore sighters and firing preferred live shells from the shoulder.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,409 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,409 Likes: 4 |
............facing a buyer of a new double gun today? Is it price, or getting the options he wants, is it simply finding the right gun?
My opinion is that the very biggest problem a new doublegun buyer faces is that of regulation. I am a bit of a perfectionist about regulation. I have read writers who propose that as low as 50% "overlap" (their words) is acceptable. That is totally unacceptable to me. Their idea is that, if the patterns of the two barrels are not perfectly overlapping it doesn't matter, because no shooter is good enough to perfectly center the bird in the pattern everytime anyway. That is an anathema to me. What if you are "off" on the wrong side? A miss results, that should have been a hit with a regulated gun, or worse, a cripple.
Another reason that this is the number one problem, IMO, is that regulation cannot be checked, in almost all cases, until after you've bought the gun. Remember the 3-day NON-FIRING policies? You can walk into a gun show, or gun shop, and find the "perfect" gun, shoulder it to see if the dims are close to suitable, drop in snap caps and test the triggers, etc. but, you cannot test it for regulation.
I built a pattern plate about a year ago, and it tells the tale. There are waaaay more doubles floating around that are not regulated than most would believe. What's the big deal? Nothing, unless you're a serious shooter who likes to hit what he shoots at.
SRH Ok, I would recommend 12ga from reputable maker in very good mechanical order. Besides wide variety of loads the good ole' 12 is more forgiving in regulation department.
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Joined: Jan 2012
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 485 Likes: 183 |
Price and finding the right gun are the two big ones for me.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
I'm a perfectionist at some things and slob at others. Your gripe is last thing I'd think of buying a new gun. Practically, fit is a bigger issue than regulation: mounting the gun properly during all seasons, wearing a T-shirt bluebird days and dressed for foul weather as a Michelin Man, clothes ranging from slippery nylons and oilskins, cotton and canvas parkas and snow smocks. I see your point for rote trap/skeet performances but not for the real thing.
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