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Joined: Aug 2007
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I have had tremendous success shooting both the current Rio Bismuth 2 3/4 and 3 rounds at passing ducks out to 60 yards. Found them to be deadly.

Shot these in a 1930s English BLNE waterfowler by Betts proofed at 1.5 ounce. While it is a stout old gun and capable of handling higher pressures than a typical vintage game gun, I was never disappointed in the lethality of these modern bismuth loads. I dont doubt that TM is a more effective shot for vintage guns but they are twice the expense of bismuth. Rio bismuth are affordable and deadly!

Dr. P

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Originally Posted By: King Brown
I think the youngest of my old doubles is 75-plus years. Some more than 100. Old wood. I believe Kent bismuth is around 9,900, more than I want for my Elsies and Parkers. Kent TM must be considerably more from the way it pushes me back.



King that chamber pressure is directly from Kent. Their 12 gauge 1 1/4 oz. produces 9,900 psi. Now their 1 3/8 oz. load produces over 11,000 psi. That's what is probably pushing you back.

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Pressure isn't a significant factor in felt recoil. The two main culprits are velocity and payload. Increase either one of those and you will feel more recoil. Increase both and you'll feel a lot more.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Pressure isn't a significant factor in felt recoil. The two main culprits are velocity and payload. Increase either one of those and you will feel more recoil....

Since velocity starts off at zero fps, the change in velocity may be the force that is being felt.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Originally Posted By: 1cdog


That said my biggest growing concern is what Chuck H. said. Shooting non-tox capable guns and/or finding the right non-tox shells for my guns - without making alterations to my guns like opening up the chokes and so forth.


I don't always get the concern with opening chokes, other than on vintage guns that are very collectible and have the chokes marked on the flats (or you have a factory letter). Most vintage doubles, especially American ones, tended to be choked pretty tight. While I'd prefer to find one with the chokes I want--almost always more open than M/F--I won't hesitate to have them altered to best suit the kind of hunting I do.


Its not that simple.

Opening a choke is only the start. If you own a 2.5 inch chambered gun - there is only 1 source that I am aware of for 2.5 inch Bismuth shells - RST. Then do you open a choke and open the chambers for 2.75 shells?

I am always opposed to removing metal from barrels whether for opening choke or chamber lengthening.

Ultimately it probably depends on the guns you own and where you shop.

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Originally Posted By: Stan
1cdog, I have been loading bismuth for years and shooting it out of my Fox doubles, including my HE grade which has .042"-.043" choke in each barrel. It kills mallards like lightning. The only thing I can tell that is fractured is duck bones.

SRH


Stan, thanks for the info and first hand account.

I have always tried to shoot bismuth just out of barrels that were at least modified. I have been afraid of barrel damage using bismuth in full choke guns.

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Bismuth is almost as soft as lead. Hard lead shot has a Brinnel hardness of 11, Bismuth is 18, and steel shot is 110.

Kinda puts the hardness into perspective.

SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Larry, when it gets serious with 2 3/4 12 ga Kent TM 1 1/4-ounce at 1400, I need, at 6" 200 pounds, a well-planted back foot for a high-angle shot. Wouldn't consider using them in old 12s, which are all I have except for the 686.

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A board member here was gracious enough to send me a box of WW 3/4 oz. loads @ 1100 fps to try in the .410 with the cross firing issues. I had the opportunity late this afternoon, and here are the results.

Before with 11/16 oz. loads at 1150 fps ......... rt. barrel



Same barrel with 3/4 oz. loads at 1100 fps



Left barrel with the 11/16 oz. load



Left barrel with 3/4 oz. load



Notice please how much of a difference the heavier payload at lower velocity made. The right barrel is now well regulated, where before with the lighter load it was cross firing badly. The left barrel is much improved, though not as perfectly centered as the right, it is nonetheless capable of much better shooting than before. It is only off by about 3" now, slightly low and right. I feel certain that left barrel's pattern can be moved by muzzle relief work to center it now. These were 20 yard patterns. Also, notice how much tighter the WW loads are than the RIOs. Those WW loads are deadly. I'll be ordering some of them shortly.

This is just an example fo what can be learned by shooting a plate. I'll never go back to guess work again.

Eureka!!

SRH


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That is a noticeable difference and big improvement in where that shotgun is throwing its payload.

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