doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish SxS sidelock removal: IRU-made 5 pin?

Hello All,

I am purchasing a Spanish 12g SxS Sidelock shotgun, probably made in the 1970s, with Armeria Pardo S.A on the side plates, but with IRU as the gunsmith's mark.

Here is the link to the shotgun that will be arriving next week: GunBoards Shotgun forum- link to Armeria Pardo SA IRU SxS

I would appreciate any further information, beyond what is in that thread, that would help me to:
remove the stock
clean it properly
maintain it [type of ammo to use/avoid?]
anything else you can share.

Looking closely at the higher quality pictures that were went to me, it appears to be a 5-pin action design, and the location of the pins looks just like the Grulla Elite 216RL at this link: Hallowell Company fine shotguns- Grulla 216RL SxS
I am linking this ONLY for visual comparisons- I am NOT advocating for any purchases [or against any purchases].


From my research, it appears that I need to [using the Brownell's flat-ground european thin-blade screw tips I bought] remove the two screws that have slots in them, and then tap the receiver until the sideplate 'lifts' a bit, so that I can then pull it out [gently].


However, I have heard about 'captured' vs 'uncaptured' actions- and have concerns.

Do these shotguns work as I described?
Or, when I begin to pull the side plates off, will the entire action fall apart into a pile of loose parts?

I haven't taken a sidelock action apart so far.
I have disassembled a boxlock before [JP Sauer].
I have disassembled the Cimarron 1878 Coach Hammer lock action [which I think is kind of like the sidelock, but different?]


I am just looking for any tips that can keep me from botching it.

I have watched the MidwayUSA or Brownells [I forget which] youTube video of disassembling a SxS shotgun.

I am pretty darned mechanically inclined. The list of all the different firearms I've detail stripped and/or done trigger/action jobs to totals over 40, and includes SA and DA/SA revolvers; Striker-fired, SA and DA/SA autoloading handguns; Lever/pump/bolt/semi-auto rifles; Pump, semi-auto and two break-action shotguns.

I am not trying to 'toot my own horn'. I understand the reality that you don't know me. I also understand that the 'normal' advice in that situation is simply to have a qualified gunsmith do it for me.

I LIKE doing this- just like working on cars, motorcycles, computers, stereos, and the lathe. I want to learn how. My experiences make me confident I can do a safe job.

However, I am not familiar with the design- and could use any tips you can share regarding the way it works.

Thank you

From my research, it appears that I need to [using the Brownell's flat-ground european thin-blade screw tips I bought] remove the two screws that have slots in them, You will usually find on Spanish guns the slots are normal, not very thin. Use a screwdriver that fits snugly and take care.

and then tap the receiver until the sideplate 'lifts' a bit, so that I can then pull it out [gently].
You may find that once you have removed the two screws, the locks shake out easily. If not, a tip is to (finger pressure only) screw the screw removed back in to the outside of the threaded lock plate and use this as a handle to lift the lock out. Then use a thin wooden dowel or brass rod to push the other lock off from the inside - usually just above the trigger group there is a suitable aperture right through the stock. Don't use force as these should be easy hand pressure.


However, I have heard about 'captured' vs 'uncaptured' actions- and have concerns.

Do these shotguns work as I described?
Pretty much, yes
Or, when I begin to pull the side plates off, will the entire action fall apart into a pile of loose parts?
No. The lock plates have a bridle that holds all the parts in place. Do not fire the lock off when removed, and do not try to dismantle the lock unless you have a suitable spring cramp as this is needed to reassemble

If you have ANY doubts, get a gunsmith or knowledgeable person to show you because damage can be expensive to correct.

Hi, I have several SL guns and to be honest, I never have or will I take off the sideplates. I'm not a professional so I don't want to risk any damage to the wood. I've heard stories of that happening. I guess if you don't have to, don't. As John said get a good gunsmith.

Then again, it's your gun, and you can do whatever you want. If you do, best of luck in your endeavor.

Best,

Greg

Although this video shows removing and re-installing the locks on a 5-pin Arrieta with hand detachable locks, you would remove the two pins (screws) on your gun's left side lock plate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTNYNdoU90o

Congratulations �that�s a handsome shotgun.

Yes, you will need thin blade gunsmith�s screwdrivers if you want to turn a screw on that shotgun, and the Brownells sets work well. You will likely find you need a set of the extra fine bits, but wait until the gun is in your hands to judge the need.

Cleaning it will be just cleaning the bores and standing breech after use. There is really no need to do more than pull he fore end and remove the barrels from the action to do routine cleaning.

I strongly suggest that you do not dissemble the gun beyond what is required for routine maintenance (which does not include removing the stock). Keep in mind this is a hand built gun, is unique, there are no spare parts beyond what you have made, and the further you take it apart the more likely you are to run into something unexpected.

If the locks on your IRU are like the locks on the Grulla you linked to in your post, it has four pin locks rather than five pins. Here is a marked up pic of the Grulla, with the pins circled in red:



If you decide to remove the lock plates to inspect/clean the lock works (which I confess I have done on each of the Spanish side lock shotguns I�ve bought for my own use) there are some things of which you should be aware.

Your IRU appears to have the lock plate variation that is secured to the receiver using three screws. Each lock has a lock plate screw that secures that lock plate to the receiver, and these screws are the closest the standing breech. The third screw runs from the left lock to the right, and secures the two lock plates together. Here is a marked up photo of the left lock of your IRU, with the screw heads circled in red:



Before removing these screws, use a grease pencil to mark the orientation of the screw head slots to the lock plate. When re-installing the locks and lock screws, use the grease pin marks to avoid over-tightening the lock plate screws. Also, pay attention to which of the short lock plate screws secured which lock. It�s best to keep using the left lock screw in the left lock, and the right screw in the right lock.

Here are photos of the left lock from an Armas Parkemy four pin side lock, presented for reference. This gun also used the three screw lock plates, and the holes in the left lock plate show the positioning of the two left lock plate screws:



Here is a photo of the exterior of the right lock from the same gun, showing the two screw holes in it:



And here is a photo of the lock work in the left lock. Both your gun and the Parkemy that these locks belong to are from the period when the use of a coil spring to tension the secondary, or safety, sear was well advanced. The reason the locks on your gun, and this one, are four screw rather than seven screw locks is largely this transition away from leaf springs to coils springs:




I�d expect the lock work in your locks to look pretty much as you can see here. But these are Spanish artisanal shotguns, which means you can find almost anything.

In terms of which ammunition to use/avoid in your IRU, that depends on the gun. Spanish artisanal shotguns are purpose built guns, and each gun falls somewhere on a continuum that runs from light game gun, through medium game gun, to heavy competition gun. Where your gun falls on that continuum determines the range of proper ammunition. If you want to discuss this more, let�s wait until you have the gun in hand.

Hello All,

Thank you all for your contributions.

One follow up question regarding the number of pins, for clarification: 4 vs 5?

The pictures shown clearly circle 4 pins, but there is a pin toward the front of the plate- that I am guessing is connected to the bend in the hammer/striker spring?

Does this not count as a pin? I seriously have no clue- that I why I am asking. From the outside of the plate, it looks the same.



I really appreciated the images of the Armas Parkemay side plate, from BOTH inside and out. It looks about identical to what I am getting.

Yet, I am confused as to what rises to the level of being called a 'pin' on Parkemay and what doesn't.

I have added the following picture of the outside of the Parkemay, with red circling the pins you identified on my shotgun.


After studying both inside/outside pictures of the sideplates, and then using my zoom as well as I could, it seems that there are three other points that might constitute a 'pin' coming through the sideplate- but it would take me using a magnifying glass with my magnifying visor to verify.

I have identified these points below, as I am all about consistency, and trying to understand why one thing is called a 'pin' when something similar isn't referenced.


The yellow/gold are other ones I see coming through, with the orange one being what I think is a 'floating' pivot pin for the hammer, that may be part of the hammer, and stick into holes in the plate and bridle, if I am understanding what I see accurately.

Here it is:
[img:left]https://imgur.com/FMa6eiO[/img]
Other viewpoint
[img:left]https://imgur.com/6vpEtjh[/img]


Can you help me understand why the yellow/gold 'pin' closest to the breech end of the sideplate doesn't get counted? This one is the MOST like the other 4 red circled ones, but doesn't get counted.

I may be leaping at shadows, but I am pretty sure I see what might be a faint circular line inside the other 2 gold circles on the outside- and they correspond to the locations of what appears to be two 'other' pins from the inside [one has a screw head and the other does not].

And, the picture of my Pardo/IRU shotgun has what appears to be the same faint lines, in the same places.

See here:

[img:left]https://imgur.com/oNqTvUm[/img]


I won't be able to get my hands on this shotgun until the middle of next month, as I am going on a trip, and then there is a 10 day wait here for taking it home.

Once I have hands on it and can inspect, I will do so and report back.

BTW, the main reason I want to pop the stock off is because of desire to do something to bring out the wood.

I have a large bottle of Tru-Oil I can use- for example.

thanks again!

Bczrx,

Purely FYI, the only thing that qualifies as a �pin� when counting the pins in a lock is the nether end of a screw visible on the outside of the lock. The thing we can see at the front of the lock plate isn�t the end of a screw; it�s the end of a nib that is part of the main spring.

The screws (English gun making jargon, �pins�) you have circled in red are the only screws that are visible on the outside of the lock plate. The thing you have circled in orange is the hammer pivot, and is not a screw.

The only real use of counting pins visible is to get some clue as to what kind (i.e. type, such as H&H or Purdey) of locks are on a side lock, and how the lock works are arraigned. And the whole �pins visible� can be fooled by blinding the pins (not drilling the screw holes all the way through the lock plate, thereby concealing the nether ends of the screws).

Some years ago I wrote up a short document that showed examples of Spanish locks with seven, six, five, and four pin locks, a (really, really) simple three pin lock from a Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka (Brno) ZP 49, and a Purdey lock (what the Spanish call a �lock of four pillars�). I�m going to try to provide access to that document using Drop Box. Let�s see is this works�

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4y0x0khss6hhkez/Side_Locks_and_Pins_english_version20120506.pdf?dl=0

Welcome to the world of Spanish side lock shotguns :-)

Update: I was just looking at the document linked, above, and caught an error. Using the generally accepted definition of "pins", the VS five pin lock is actually a three pin lock. Mea culpa!

bczrx,
Its hard to tell from the pics ( they won't blow up for me), if this is something special, or just a kinda gaudy gun.The wood looks very plain, the engraving looks pretty crude, & is the gold Gold , or "gold tone"?
But like I said, I can't see much detail.
Whatever it is, from the q's you ask, I think you should let a real gunsmith check it out in case you bugger it up...just my 2cents
cheers
franc

Thank you!

that is the kind of information that really helps me understand. I like details. That is what makes life confusing, but such a fun experience!

I've downloaded your pdf, and will check it out. Thank you for the explanation!

I have to agree- it is gaudy. But in a way that just 'called' to me, as being so, how shall I say it, 'indicative' of some groups focus on what 10 years ago was called 'bling' factor.

Like Saddam Hussain's Gold Browning Hi Power- but without the quality of engraving.

I don't mind your observation- I think it is accurate.

Yet, there is just something that called me to it as a sense of the exotic- to pair with my Star Model B, Star Model S Super, and Star Model F handguns, and my FR-8 Rifle: all a 'taste' of another cultures' relationship with firearms.

For more toned-down SxSs I can turn to my LC Smith Field [1947], Parker Trojan [1915] or a more ornate, but still less gaudy JP Sauer Model 60 Deluxe [around 1960].

These are all much less gaudy, and may actually work as well- but, again, this just spoke to me.




I'm sorry- I waited this long, but I can't help but think a gaudy shotgun is appropriate from the land of Antoni Gaudi, who gave us the church of Sagrada Familia in Barcelona.