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4 members (SKB, 3 invisible),
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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78 |
Hi Steve;
I am not a pinfire collector as such as I only have one. This one is a W&C Scott 12 gauge bar in wood. A Mr Crawford who was once representative for Scott in the US did some research on it. It was not serial numbered which he said was the first Scott he had knowledge of which was not numbered. It was marked on the top rib who it was made for, which was a Benjamin D Kennedy from Louisville KY, USA.
It is a top lever opener built on a Matthews patent. Mr Crawford estimated its build date as between 1863-65 as Matthews patent he said was issued in 1863, but also believes it to pre-date the Scott Spindle. It bolts with a single underbolt. I do not know if this gun was a conversion or not. He stated it would have been an A grade.
I acquired it from a gentleman who lived in Louisville. He had tried to research Mr Kennedy. all he was ever able to find was that he was issued a business license for a Jewelry Store for several years which included the time frame this gun was built. He apparently was neither born nor died in Louisville as no birth or death records were found. How interesting. I have one W&C Scott & Son pinfire, a Jones-type double grip underlever 12-bore made in 1866, s/n 11617. Though from a Birmingham gunmaker, the gun carries London proofs and the "7 Dorset Place Pall Mall London" showroom address. My understanding is that W & C Scott & Son pinfires were made in three qualities, A, B and C, and within these were varying grades. Mine appears to be a higher (though perhaps not highest) grade of the plain “C” quality. You are most fortunate to have an "A" gun! I have never seen one, and I have never come across a Matthews patent action. It is always interesting to be able to identify the original owner to a gun. It is a good reminder that these guns are not just objects, but were once someone's prize possession. Thank you for sharing the information on your gun.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78 |
I once had a Boss gun which was originally pin-fire but converted to center-fire. I seriously considered restoring it but passed it along to someone else. A small profit beats a money pit every time!...Geo Only 735 pinfire guns were built by Boss & Co. between 1858 and 1871, and very few of these have survived intact - most were converted to center-fire at a later date. The Murcott I mentioned in my original post has completely worn checkering, like the Boss in your picture. Just imagine how many hours of handling in the field, and how many pinfire and center-fire cartridges these guns must have fired, to show such wear. These guns had to survive the conversion process as well. Thanks for sharing your photo.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,715 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,715 Likes: 114 |
Steve, that Boss was built in 1860. I obtained the build sheet from Boss. My research revealed a Royal connection...Geo
I love beginning posts here with "A Boss gun I once owned"!
Last edited by Geo. Newbern; 06/17/18 01:46 PM. Reason: added final sentence
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Steve;
My Scott pinfire reads on the top rib from breech toward muzzle;
W&C Scott & Son 7 Dorset Place, Pall Mall East, London For Benj D Kennedy, Louisville KY
Each lock plate reads W&C Scott & Son, locks are bar action.
Proof marks are London of the 1855-1868 type.
IF for a cylinder bored gun (which this one is) & given the provisional plus definitive proofs rather than the combined proof the marks could have stayed the same up till 1887.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18 |
Mr. Nash,
I am a Powell collector and have both pinfires and conversions. Would love to know
more about your Powell - especially the serial number and "Powell's Patent" number.
Steve Helsley
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78 |
Steve, that Boss was built in 1860. I obtained the build sheet from Boss. My research revealed a Royal connection...Geo
I love beginning posts here with "A Boss gun I once owned"! Ha! Older Boss guns do not show up very often. I have been lucky enough to find three Boss pinfires. Nos. 2024 and 2068, double screw grip guns built in 1863 for Charles-Cecil Martyn and Sir Sandford Graham, and no. 2201 built in 1864 a single-barrel screw grip gun, ordered by Sir John Harpur-Crewe. Thankfully they are in their original condition.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78 |
Mr. Nash,
I am a Powell collector and have both pinfires and conversions. Would love to know
more about your Powell - especially the serial number and "Powell's Patent" number.
Steve Helsley Wonderful! My Powell is a double-barrelled bar-in-wood 12-bore, no. 3790, converted to dual pin-/centre-fire. The top rib is marked "William Powell & Son No. 3790". The shortened 27” barrels have the initials “J. A.” stamped underneath – a maker’s mark? The barrels are fitted with an extractor and the pin holes have been left unfilled. The gun has the push-up single bite snap lever action (Powell's patent no. 1163 of 1864), and bar locks. As to the history of the gun, it was first completed on 9 November 1866 for H. W. Lord, under the serial number 3690. This name has been crossed out in the company ledger, and the gun was renumbered and sold again on 16 December 1869 under serial number 3790 to J. B. Dellap (listed as "best patent breech loader, best damascus barrels, 30 in., 73 lb.," for Ł25).
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,304 Likes: 222
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,304 Likes: 222 |
Mr. Nash, I am curious about the rim size cut out in your dual fire gun. Most pinfire rims are smaller than centerfire rims. In any event, it seems one rim or the other might not fit properly in the same gun.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531 Likes: 18 |
Mr. Nash,
Thank you.
I'd like to send you some information. May I have your email address?
I'd also like the Powell's Patent number from the action flat. It should be
in the 200-range. The serial number can be changed without the PP
number changing.
I'm very interested in which extractor system you have.
Steve
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 433 Likes: 78 |
Mr. Nash, I am curious about the rim size cut out in your dual fire gun. Most pinfire rims are smaller than centerfire rims. In any event, it seems one rim or the other might not fit properly in the same gun. I don't have the best caliper, but the rim recess seems to measure about 1-1.25mm, and a 12-bore cartridge fits in it, no problem. I've not fired the gun, but I can speculate that since the pinfire cartridge would not be wholly supported at this junction, split cases might have occurred, particularly with very thin brass. As a typical pinfire gun-case tool was a cartridge extractor, then split brass, swollen paper, broken pins etc. must have been regular occurrences in any case.
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