doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question about UK gun laws?

Do percussion doubles, made in the 1870-1880 time frame count as a gun and have to on a certificate? Are there problems shipping them out of the country? In the US they are considered to not be a gun and can he shipped or sold with few restrictions. Importing them is easy as pie for us. Are they a problem to export.

I found a nice small bore percussion double which I�d like to buy and have cleaned up. Might need a reproof. Then shipped to me. Seller, a dealer, not interested in shipping it or sending it to someone else to ship it. He noted on his listing it needed to be lapped and might need a reproof. Emphasis on might. When I contacted him he claims it is too much effort to do it. So I offered to buy it as is. No good. I don�t understand I am offering him his full price and to pay fair and reasonable price for everything. So it�s for sale but not for sale outside walk in.

He is just being difficult. It happens. I know a guy who wants to sell a whole bunch of small frame martini's. Except he will not sell them to me, go figure. To answer your question though, as long as a percussion gun is not shot it can be owned off ticket.

SKB, we've been through this before. Anything made before 1898 is not a firearm in the USA. You can put it in your luggage and bring it back and customs won't say a word. I did this with a hand-made old Baluch double shotgun - brought it all the way back from Quetta in my luggage passing through London. But can you get such a gun out of the UK?

By the way, per ATF you can't import reproductions either - it's just that the Pashtun made copies of Martini-Henry's are so good they can't tell the difference so they don't try.

Any gun that will (or may be) be used is still 'a gun' and subject to the usual gun licensing. My percussion gun is licensed because it is usable.

Where a gun is antique (and no ammunition to suit is available) it may (subject to never being intended for use) be held without license.

It is a bit of a 'grey' area, but for for muzzle loading shotguns - which have not been deactivated (and certified as such by the proof house) you would normally require the usual license.

I am not an expert at anything anymore but at one time I had a clear understanding of Winchester Model 70�s and could quote known numbers of each caliber and variations. A very useful skill in pre internet days when you had to recognize if an example in hand was original and more important a rare find. You�d buy a lower condition rare gun in a heartbeat if you knew it was rare. If a common variant you had to pass because you could not tie up your money in a shooter in case a nice rarer gun came up for sale later.

There are so many refinished examples of both Model 70�s and Model 12�s, which have been altered or refinished, trying to pass for mint condition guns it�s a nightmare collecting them. I found, without exception, when a seller would not let me look at his guns it was one or more of three reasons. It was the gun, personal or money. First the gun was not legit, it was altered to a rarer variation or had been skillfully refinished. Second he was a collector who did not want me to improve my collection more that his collection., it was personal. Or three, his asking and intended selling price was outlandish and he knew it. He was trolling for a rich, stupid, sucker.

KY Jon, JohnfromUK is correct about the ownership of muzzle loaders in the UK. The catch is there is no definition of 'antique' that is pertinent to the gun's legal standing. It is based on its 'use-ability', availability of ammo and one's intention to use it or not.
I would add that for export purposes, with the introduction of the PL9010 statute, anything made before 1890 is now absolved of the need for an export licence while everything made after 1889 has to have a full individual export licence supported by an end user declaration. Open General Licences simplify this somewhat but there are still some hurdles to jump.
However this does not help you much with the export. The problem here is that all the air freight companies (no international courier firms will touch firearms here) treat all firearms the same regardless of age. In fact on a recent export I was found that they were classifying my pre-1890 shotguns as UK 'Section 5' which strictly speaking includes machine guns and other banned weapons.
Therefore, although you wouldn't need a export licence for these percussion weapons, you are going to pay just the same as a AK47.
If you want them badly enough, I suggest you talk about them to someone who regularly exports firearms from the UK and see if they can help.

John and Toby thanks. That�s about what I understood. We all think our laws are complex enough until we look at other people�s laws. Suppressors and full auto guns can he had here with the proper tax stamps. It�s money. Antiques, pre 1898 made guns are declared to not be guns while a modern made example of the exact same thing is a modern gun and strictly, to us anyways, regulated. You can not own some guns or accessories unless you have paid a tax to own them. But if a rats nest and joke at the same time. A bullet shot out of a 1897 made gun is the same as one made in 1899, 1997 or 2018. But one gun is not a gun and the next is.

Some changes in Ammunition availability can move a true Antique Gun from one category to another here in the UK. In my study I have had a pinfire double shot gun built about 1840 hanging from bookshelf brackets for the last fifty years will post a picture if I can find one. The Firearms officers who come and check once in a while that I am keeping my licenced guns in a secure manner have payed no attention to my pinfire wall hanger other than it being a quaint old relic until my last visit. Things have now changed so I am told because there is a small company in France commercially manufacturing pinfire shotgun cartridges at vast expense though, and this now puts my pinfire wall hanger in very strange position. Before this company started manufacturing the gun was classed as obsolete with no ammunition available just being a curio. But now If I intend to shoot it must be recorded on my shotgun certificate as a working gun. But if I have no intention to shoot the gun I can still keep it as a curio. BUT IT CAN NOT NOW BE A WALL HANGER UNLESS IT IS DEACTIVATED TO HOME OFFICE STANDARDS what ever they are, and now be kept locked up in a secure place. So it is heads they win tails I loose.

I have imported several guns from the UK into the USA. You need a LICENSED exporter in the UK... there are several firms that can handle this and they will also make arrangements to ship to your US importer.

If it qualifies as a GUN in the USA, you need to have an FFL licensed importer to clear it through US customs and you must have first applied for and received an import permit, or the importer must have done so. The importer might be your FFL, but probably not. The importer ships to your FFL. PITA, but might be worth it.

So just trying to figure out if there is any real option to buy this gun. Could I pay for this gun and have it shipped to a dealer in GB? One with a export ability, to ship it to me later? I know this is truly going to be a money pit but "blank" it. I am not getting any younger and a decent small bore muzzle loader is not going to grow on any tree I am likely to come across. What would this cost �300-400 to accept the gun and ship it to me? Then what to have the barrels lapped and reproofed if needed? Another �300 or more. I might be looking at �600-800 extra pounds on a gun which is going to cost me less that �500.

The numbers get silly I know. But there have been a few guns I have thought hard about buying lately and I just want to know. I threatened to flyover for the last Holt auction because my bidding has been fruitless for the last few years.