doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 3" shells, a solution to a problem we don't have

Jon, actually you could cover everything with just the 12. But who wants to? Gil

I kinda misread your post Jon, in hindsight. Question now arises, are you thinking 3" 12 gauge shells are not needed? I'm pretty firmly ensconced in using 3" steel for ducks. If we had lead to use, I'd be happy with 2 3/4" baby magnums.

SRH

KY Jon,

In my particular case I like different Gauge double guns, for different purposes and different habitats. Habitat changes as the hunting season progresses, and so the double guns change with it.

In the early part of Grouse season when the habitat is like the Viet Nam Jungle here in Pa, Wva and NY I have been known to use my light 12 Gauge #3 L.C. Smith double gun with it's 26" barrels, and Fiocchi 2 3/4 shells, @1300 FPS or my 1920's LeFever/ Ithaca, on it's 16 Gauge frame, to shoot thru the heavy foliage, 8's under the 1st trigger, 6's under the 2nd, giving me a good chance to put down the escaping Grouse. This usually happens for a very short time, maybe 2 times at the beginning of the season. No 3" shells used in either of these double guns.

After that I use all my 16 Gauge Pre 1913 L.C. Smith double guns, and my 1889 J.P. Sauer bird gun, with 2 1/2" SpredR loads. I love these double guns in the Grouse woods. They have become an extension of my body.

Later when the leaves are mostly down I use my 20 Gauge H&R Double Hammer Gun, and my Grandfather's Special ordered pre 13 L.C Smith Silver Breech, with SpredR loads. Both these American Classics are a joy to both carry and shoot.

When the leaves are down I use my GreatGrandfather's Special Ordered 20 Gauge 1898 #2 L.C. Smith. Which some thieving fool, had permanent full length 28 Gauge inserts, custom installed by Briley long ago. We Just recovered this stolen gun a few years ago, with John Houchins help. I use SpredR loads most of the time in this custom made L.C. Smith 28. This beautiful little gun with it's incredible Kraus engraving has 28 Gauge 3" Chambers and I use it for jump shooting Wood Ducks from time to time also. During this time I also use the modern L.C. Smith 28 Gauge with B&P shells or SpredR's.

I like to use different double guns at different times.

Ryman Gun Dog

A few of the bird guns I talked about in the post.
The LeFever/Ithaca 12 Gauge on it's 16 Gauge Frame, on Top far right, under it the 1898 #2, under it the pre 13, 16 Gauge L.C Smith and last the 1889 J.P. Sauer 16 Gauge German Bird Gun.

Beautifully explained and stated, Stan. Good, clear thinking on this.
JR

I love a man with a plan, several of them in fact. And with such nice looking guns to play with.

Stan, I agree that due to circumstances the 3" 12 has a place since we can't use lead. But the 3" shell was invented before the need for steel came along. It was meant to replace the need for a 10. Gun makers sell versatility like shell length or screw in chokes so one gun or one gauge can do it all.

I also know you shoot a lot of 3" .410, where I shoot a lot of 2 1/2". Understanding the difference is 20-30% at best, not the 50% the increase in payload suggest. Pellets just wont distribute perfectly. I have to limit range more than you do. But in a .410 what does that mean in range? Five yards or eight yards max. On my best day a .410 is a 30-33 yards option, using 1/2 ounce, in a full choke, my average day 23-28 yards. I don't think I'd get more than a couple more yards with a 3".

I dislike 3 inch loads in 20 gauge because I prefer light weight 20 gauge double guns.
I see no reason to force 1 1/4 ounces of shot down a 20 gauge tube.
I cannot see a reason to lengthen the 28 gauge hull either.
I do shoot 3" 12 gauge steel out of an ugly camo gun.

No argument from me on your reasoning, buddy. I approach it from a little different perspective. I think I get 5+ yards more out of the 3" load, but maybe for a bit different reason. As I said earlier, I grew up shooting 3" .410 loads, and quickly learned their range limit in my J C Higgins Tenite stocked double. When I came back around to the little guns some years ago, for doves, I naturally began using 3" factory loads. My grandson was ready to begin his first season on doves with a Stoeger double 410. I decided to limit myself to one for "his sake", to show him the range limitations and that the little gun could really do the job on doves. We ended up, one day, using up our few 3" loads and only had 1/2 oz. loads to finish our afternoon. I was admittedly surprised at how well it knocked them down, but in reflection realized that almost none of the doves were DOA, but many were floppers and runners. Going back to 3" loads the next time, and comparing them to some more 1/2 oz. 2 1/2"ers, it was very apparent to me that I had way more dishragged doves with the heavier loads..................same size shot.

So, rather than hoping to extend range drastically with the magnum loads, I am using them to help ensure more DOA doves in the sunflowers, peanut and corn fields. My Cady was killed by a truck a little over a year ago, and I've not replaced her. So, it is incumbent upon me to help myself find every dove I knock down. As you know, they can run a few yards and hide amazingly well in a sunflower field with bare ground underneath.

Interesting discussion, but I'd sure rather be shooting them than talking about them!! 41 days and a wake-up...........

SRH

Stan, what size shot do you favor in the .410, 8 1/2, 8, 7 1/2 or 7�s? It�s all about trade offs sometimes. Shooters want more pellets, to have a better chance for hits but the smaller the pellet, the less energy to penetrate and penetration kills Dove. I tend towards 7�s if I can get them to reload with, 7 1/2 if I can�t. I won�t shoot anything smaller than 7 1/2�s at Dove but I know many swear by 8, 8 1/2 or 9�s. In a 12 you get so many more pellets to work, with even less penetration can be offset by multiple hits. No so on a .410 I�m afraid. On a passing Dove you only have two thirds of his body as a target. You can hit a Dove 20 times in the rear and he will fly off to die elsewhere.

I�ve done a lot of patterning of .410 loads. I�ve found with the 2 1/2�, 1/2 ounce load, if you drive it faster than about 1275 FPS my patterns fall off. I have had some loads which went 1350 FPS but the patterns were not at all consistent and everything has to be consistent with the .410. What I see with the 3� seems to hit that sweet spot at about 1125-1150. While slower works well in bigger bores for patterns it does not with the .410. I get too much center density with slower loads and not enough overall usable patterns. Too fast and you get blown patterns or one pattern which looks good and one which does not. Again, all about trade offs.

KY Jon,

You are right on the money, my testing with .410 shells shows the same thing yours does, and it can vary from gun to gun also. Now I just purchase the Win .410 shells off the shelf, making sure they are under 1275 FPS. I use the .410 for introducing my Gun Dog pups to gun fire, usually shooting Chukar for them after they do every thing correctly. When using the 2 1/2" shells to start out with, the gunner must be dead on the bird, having guys miss a number of kill shots with the old Savage O/U DT/DH gun, I started to investigate the shells I was using. Turns out the patterns were no where near consistent, so I started looking for different shells.

Ryman Gun Dog

I favor 8s in the early season, 7 1/2s after that. No other size for doves or quail in a .410. Anything larger than 7 1/2s would make my pattern too sparse I'm afraid, and I don't want anything smaller than 8s, because they shed energy too quickly. 8s out of a 410 are just as deadly as 8s out of a 12 ga.. If the bird is hit with the same number of shot it dies the same. I'd rather go with more choke to get the pattern density I need than with smaller shot. Just my experience. I am always open to suggestions, however.

The reason I don't like 9s is that I tried them once on doves and wild quail in a Powell 16 ga. m/l. The lower velocities I was loading them to didn't impress me at all, especially a going away quail. Doves would falter, lose feathers and keep flying. Didn't take me long to swear off 9s for my hunting. 8s or 7 1/2s did far, far better at the same mv.

I agree about the velocity for .410s. Most of mine do best at about the 1150 fps mv mark.

All my best, SRH