doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 3" shells, a solution to a problem we don't have

I was curious as to why the one "above" the 20 was a 12, with the 16 being skipped. I realize 14 ga guns exist, but the 16 is still in common enough use to count as the next one up from a 20. My 16's were all in the safe, and thus there were no hurt feelings.

Mike

Mike, it is simple numbers. 16's just are not that common any more. I have them and others do as well, but 98-99% of ammo sales are not in 16 gauges. The 12 has to be 70+% of ammo sales, then 20 are 20%. The 28 might be 3-4%, the .410 is another 4-5%.

As to the 20-16-12 difference. The 16 is stuck in a too small gap. A highly efficient 20 can duplicate a middle range 12 shell and the entire range of 16's. The 16 can be loaded up to 12 middle range range or down to 20 but not that well unless you reload. There are still a very limited number of factory shells to choose from. I did not mean to hurt any 16's feelings and please accept my apologies if I did.

Stan, I agree about shot as there is very little difference between 7, 7 1/2 and 8/'s in high quality shot. If I had to shoot a open choke .410 hunting, I would leave it at home, period. Like you I like choke and am not afraid of it in the .410 which is why I figured you were so concerned with convergence and POI in your guns earlier. If I wanted a big ass pattern I'd bring a 12. I find tight chokes, in a .410 are more workable, than many think. It is all about knowing where your POI is, getting a decent pattern density, with a workable size pattern.

You don't get good 20-24" wide .410 patterns, even with a 3" shell. Too much center density or the pattern just is too weak every where. Again with the trade offs. 2 1/2" ammo can give you 15-18" patterns with with enough density, you might get a little more with your 3" shell's heavier payload, but I have not had that much success getting that much of a wider pattern, without loosing center density.

A 3" shell, in a Skeet choke is not the answer. Been there and tried that. I think you have to drive that 11/16 or 3/4 ounce payload faster than 1125-1150 fps, in a tighter choke, than you are doing. With 300-mp, Remington hulls, Remington SP410 wads you might be able to do it but more likely at 11/16 than 3/4. But there is no published data so you need to create your own. I have loaded several loads in the past and had them pressure and velocity tested. If you are into uncharted loads, test ones both high and low, once you know the pressure is in a safe range you can try multiple loads in between, knowing you are safe. Then it is more about patterns, than velocity, after a point.

I've loaded 2 1/2", 1/2 ounce loads, which chronograph at almost 1425 fps. The patterns got better, when I backed them down into the 1250-1275 fps range but went bad again (too much center density) much below 1200, (1225-1150). I call it the sweet spot of velocity. I suspect you might get a 11/16 ounce, 3" load to push 1250 fps, without too much pressure and a decent pattern. I don't know if you can with a 3/4 ounce load. If not you best load is your best load, even if it is not what you set out to load.

Jon- Like I said, mine were all asleep in the safe- no harm, no foul. Maybe one reason so few 16 ga shells are sold is cuz we're stingy, and like to roll our own. It's been five to seven years since I bought any new shells in 16.

Also, as has been bashed around before, you can stuff a ton o' lead in the smaller bores, but what happens to the patterns? Also, the most vicious kicking gun I ever had the displeasure to shoot was a 20. Reminded me of the short time I owned a 375 H&H.

Anyway, good thoughts, and I always enjoy your posts.

Mike

I was born and raised a Farmer. I have been a firearms enthusiast from my first gun (a SxS dart gun and a wind-up rabbit) at age three. I was assigned pest control duties at age 7 to keep the rat, pigeon, starling and sparrow numbers at a minimum in the out-buildings. I started hunting on my own at age 9 with a .22lr. At age 11 I was given my first shotgun, a 12ga, 2-3/4", Coast-to-Coast pumpgun. I took every type of legal game with that gun. By my 16th year the short stock was making every shot taken a pain as my thumb would bust me in the nose. I bought my first gun that year, 1976. It was a Savage/Valmet 20ga, O/U. It was my only shotgun for the following ten years.

Where this is leading? I have never bought into the magnum mentality. If you can not hit your target; more shot, more velocity, and thus more recoil will not improve your condition. I have fired less than one box of three inch shells in my lifetime. I don't own a rifle labeled "Magnum".

Disclaimer: I have never been a habitual Waterfowl Hunter. Had I been, a 12ga would have come sooner.

Well written article on chamber lengths by Terry Wieland in the latest issue of Gray�s Sporting Journal (August 2018).

I don't consider myself as having bought into the magnum mentality either. The term magnum, as applied to ammunition, is rather vague anyway.............mostly hype. It certainly doesn't necessarily mean higher velocity. I certainly am not a proponent of trying to make super-duper hotrod loads out of all standard ones. This project of trying to create a 3/4 oz. nickel plated load for the .410s is not a crutch to make me a better shot, in order to improve my condition. It is being done simply because that load cannot be bought anywhere, and it's fun creating it. Winchester has been offering a 3/4 oz. regular lead shot loading for many years, and they shoot very well out of some of my .410s.

I tip my hat to the man who is a superb wing shot. I care not whether he is using something that has had the "magnum" label attached to it. If he can shoot a "magnum" really well, he can probably wipe your eye with a shortie load, too. But, sadly, many cannot, and think bigger is always better.

SRH

Yep, bigger is better won. When I mentioned three-inch Model 500 SKB 20 ga in starter gun-thread, length-distinction intended it's there only if the shooter felt it was needed. Lighter guns are important at each end of life's engagement.

With the forced change to non-tox, 3" shells came in to their own. Especially in 20ga. Bismuth and the other steel substitutes help but are expensive and still not up to lead unless you spring for the heavy weights like TSS or Heavy-shot.

High speed steel in 3" number twos bring down prairie mallards and big Canadas with authority in 12ga or 20ga. High speed steel kicks a lot though. I've never been recoil shy until lately. Could be I'm getting into the wrong end of 'life's engagement'...Geo

More like this recoil is not required to do the job than gun-shy, Geo? I wouldn't own hard-kicking when there are lots of shotguns, rifles and ammunition to provide satisfactory results without it. My experience on geese with 20ga Bismuth 3" 1 1/8, 1250fps No 4 relates to yours. The sight of it has always taken away recoil, and I'm really getting up there..

Ryman Gun Dog, could you elaborate on this gun please? This is a Syracuse gun? Do you know what year Smith began offering 20 bore?

Anyone else who can add color, please chime in.


- NDG