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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 Likes: 12 |
I ran into a shotgun called a Gardin. It looks exactly like a Darne. Does anyone have any information about the maker in regards to quality or history? The other thing about this gun is the right barrel is rifled. Could you still shoot regular shot out of the barrel and achieve any decent patterns? I would assume there would be not choke on the rifled barrel. What are your thoughts on this?
Dave B
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
On the "other thing", if the gun is French which I assume most Darne-like guns are, and the rifled barrel is chambered for shotshell, it's most likely a "canon raye" designed precisely for the dispersion of small shot at close range.
jack
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 Likes: 12 |
Jack, thanks for the info. The gun is chambered 12 gauge. When you say a "canon raye" is designed precisely for the dispersion of small shot at close range do you mean it acts as some kind of spreader? I was thinking it was rifled for use with slugs. Could the rifling cause pellet deformation resulting in a larger dispersion? I am no expert but this is very interesting stuff. Is this canon ray a viable concept or just a crazy idea that doesn't really work? If I buy the gun, I'd like to be able to kill grouse and Woodcock with it. All advice welcomed.
Thanks,
Dave B
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Dave, the reference which I used is late gunwriter G. T. Garwood. He says that the rifling will be very low rate of twist but does not state a ratio. Stated goal a widely dispersed close-range pattern without the use of a spreader load; no mention of a multi-purpose use such as shot and slugs. Pellet deformation didn't occur to me as a mechanism for dispersion; although unstated I had assumed that the principle was centrifugal force in the shot engendered by the charge following the twist of the rifling. Garwood is quite clear about the French origin of the concept and its intended close range use on "stunt" fliers. The maker mentioned is Bretton so I am stretching a bit to suggest that the rifled shot barrel is common among other French makers. If "tw" happens along, he may be able to tell you more than I can.
jack
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 Likes: 12 |
Jack, very interesting. Centrifugal force from following the rifling. Thanks for the information. I wonder what the thing would pattern like.
Thanks,
Dave B
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,162 Likes: 433
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,162 Likes: 433 |
Dave:
If the rifling is full length then it would be something similar to a cape gun if the barrels are side by side. If the rifling is only for a few inches at the end then from an English perspective it would be a "Murphy" or "Paradox" used for fowl as well as big game at distance out to say 40-50 yards. In the case of the "Paradox" the bores are usually open and the effect of the rifling is minimal. As to the French aspect, I can't say because I've never be a fan of the French.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 87
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 87 |
Ted Schefelbein will know the name of the choke; but for now there is some info from an article by Roger Barlow. "Even a true cylinder throws too tight a pattern...at 12 to 20 yards....
...some French gunmakers offer a cylinder barrel having very light rifling of slow twist which produces a usefully broad pattern with ordinary shotshells...effective in the 12 to 22 yard range....In effect it makes a superior "spreader" load of any normal shotshell...."
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
See chapter head "Short Range Devices", pp. 116-120 of Gough Thomas's Second Gun Book for discussion of the canon raye and the Galand and Courtier [spreader] cartridges. Garwood shows illustration of pattern "thrown at 18 yrds slow-twist rifled barrel of Bretton 12-bore firing 1 1/8 oz. of No. 8 shot."
You might well pattern your Darne look alike to find what the rifled barrel does relative to a 30" circle at 18-20 yrds. I'd be interested to know. I also have a sliding-breech gun (Charlin) but it's smooth-bore both barrels.
jack
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,162 Likes: 433
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,162 Likes: 433 |
Did the Belgians get "CH B Raye" for partially rifled choked-bored barrels from the French?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 251
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 251 |
Canon rayé is simply French for barrel with rifling. All rifle barrels are referred to as canons rayés.
Some French shotgun barrels were, and still are, manufactured with shallow rifling intended to produce wider shot patterns at short range. The French refer to them as "canons rayés dispersant", but simply canon rayé would probably be stamped on the barrel. They supposedly work, at least enough, so that they are still offered.
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