doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Savage Fox Sterlys

I assume the Savage marked Fox guns are the least valuable? I've read they used leftover Philly and/or maybe just Utica parts to assembly guns at the end of the Sterlingworth run with barrels made by Savage. What could a person expect to get into one in hunting/field condition (i.e. no case colors, worn but solid wood, tight, etc) pricewise? I'm talking 16s here...

I would like to pick up a user Sterly in 16 for $600 or so, but am I dreaming?

Correct me if I�m wrong, but if it has Utica marks...it�s a Savage, or at least put together by Savage using left over Philly parts, but it�s a Savage built gun. Around 1929 or so, right?
Some of the early Savage built guns will resemble Philly guns. Nicely shaped stocks & forends, nicely fit and finished. Later on down the line you start to see the cost savings kicking in...ie square shaped blocky forends, checkering done on the cheap, variances in how neatly the actions & toplevers are shaped, etc.
My friend has a nice, early Utica Sterly 16 for sale, in pretty decent shape, hunting & shooting gun..., still has all the hallmarks of a Philly gun, 26� bbls. Ic/mod chokes. I tried selling it here, couldn�t even get $800 for it.

LeFusil,

You could certainly be correct...I know little to nothing about the various Fox guns.

Sterlingworth -- When Ansley H. Fox, was forced to add a lower priced gun to his line of graded Ansley H. Fox guns, in 1910, he didn't want to detract from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. name, so they dummied up "The Sterlingworth Company." The first year�s guns, beginning with serial number 50,000, were marked as being "Made By The Sterlingworth Company, Philadelphia, U.S.A." Actually the first few hundred were marked "Wayne Junction" instead of Philadelphia. They even produced a separate The Sterlingworth Gun Co. catalogue for 1910. These guns were built under the same patents as the graded Ansley H. Fox guns. The main moneysaving features were an American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra) stock as opposed to the more costly European thin shell walnut (Juglans regia) stocks on the graded guns, and the "Sterlingworth Fluid Steel" barrels instead of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Workmanship on these early Sterlingworths was generally excellent, better than graded guns from the 1920's and 30's. The early "The Sterlingworth Company" guns had a rounded front for the side panel of the frames. According to my list of observed specimens that was changed to the same pointed profile as the graded guns by #51,301.

In 1911 this field grade gun was added to the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue as the Model 1911. "Model 1911" is stamped in the forearm iron. (A very few graded guns made about this time are stamped Model 1910) The lowest Model 1911 serial number I've recorded is #53,140. All of these early Sterlingworths had a recessed hinge-pin head like Parkers, or Ansley's earlier guns made in Baltimore and the Philadelphia Arms Company A.H. Fox gun. The highest "pin gun" Sterlingworth serial number I've recorded is # 62,244. After that Sterlingworth hinge-pins are dressed smooth like the graded guns. When the small-bores (16- and 20-gauge) were added to the Ansley H. Fox line they were briefly referred to in some flyers as the Model 1912, but I've never seen one so stamped. Graded 20-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 200,000 and 20-gauge Sterlingworths 250,000. Graded 16-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 300,000 and 16-gauge Sterlingworths 350,000.

Most of the Philadelphia produced S-worths had the word "Sterlingworth" roll stamped on each side of the frame. After production moved to Utica, Savage started using a "Fox-Sterlingworth" roll stamp.

When the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 it had a price of $25. The price stayed at $25 thru 1915, then climbed quickly to $55 by 1919. A.H. Fox Gun Co. reduced the price to $48 in 1922 and again to $36.50 in 1926. Workmanship of course declined.
Parker Bros. introduced their Trojan Grade at $25.50 in 1912. The Trojan�s price climbed like the Sterlingworth to $55. Parker Bros. kept the price and the quality of the Trojan high and sold about 33000 total. Fox began cutting the price of the Sterlingworth and sold well over 100000.

Savage kept the $36.50 price until June 1932 when they upped it to $39.50. On February 10, 1936, they upped the price again to $42.85 (the digits 2 and 8 are transposed in McIntosh's book). On February 1, 1938, Savage tried a price cut and dropped it to $35. February 1, 1939, they upped the price to $44.75. January 2, 1940, up again to $48.50. January 2, 1941, up to $52.65 and June 16 up again to $56.50. January 2, 1942, up again to $64.95.

There were more 12-gauge Sterlingworths made than any other Fox double (some 94000, the great majority with 30- or 28-inch barrels).

To Phily or Utica, That Is The Question � As with all American doubles earlier the Ansley H. Fox gun the better the workmanship, and quality of wood grade for grade. I have seen some pretty lame very late Utica Fox-Sterlingworths. I haven�t observed that much of a decline in the quality of the graded Ansley H. Fox guns built by Savage. They seem to remain pretty much the same as the late 1920s Philadelphia built guns, except for the uglier profile of some of the top-levers, and the bulkier forearm wood, which some like and some don�t.

The older guns often have more drop at heel than most people like today. The standard drop-at-heel for Philadelphia vintage Sterlingworths was 3-inches for 26-inch (Brush) and 28-inch (Field) barreled guns, and 2 3/4 - inch for 30-inch (Standard) and 32-inch (Trap). Names in () how factory referred to various barrel length Sterlingworths. Stock dimensions were to order on graded guns so anything is possible. I have a 1914 A-grade 12-gauge straight-grip that came from the factory with 2 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. A friend has an AE-grade 20-gauge with 3 1/2 - inch drop-at-heel! All the Savage vintage catalogues list 2 3/4 inch drop-at-heel as standard for all barrel length Sterlingworths. Later guns also tend to have their barrels a little less finely struck and hence weigh a bit more. While the Sterlingworth was always stocked with American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra), pre WW-I graded guns were all stocked in European Walnut (Juglans regia). After WW-I only XE-grade and above were listed in the catalogues with Juglans regia, and by the last Savage catalogue all mention of European Walnut had disappeared.

The change-over was gradual and occurs in 12-gauge guns through serial numbers in the high 12x,xxx range. The earliest Utica marked 12-gauge S-worth I've recorded is 128,419. Since originally writing this I've found a nest of 32-inch guns in the 1220xx range with Utica markings. These early Utica guns are just like late Phily guns with the sleek toplever, slim forearm and capped pistol grip with the flat-topped diamonds for checkering. Some early Utica guns have barrel markings are in lettering at least twice as large as the Philly S-worths and is something like -- Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel -- Made for Savage Arms Corp., Utica, NY by A.H. Fox -- . I don't have one in front of me so don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact wording. The ugly Savage top lever, the bulky forearm, the coarse pointed checkering, the Special Alloy Forged Steel barrels and the capless pistol grip stocks seem to begin appearing in the 132,xxx range in 12-gauge S-worths. The capless pistol grip is first pictured in the 1937 catalogue. By the 138,xxx range, capped pistol grips begin appearing randomly again!?!

Also you have to remember, that the workers were grabbing parts out of bins and assembling guns. I have a Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Brush in the 160,xxx range and it has barrels marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel, the sleek Philly top lever and safety slide, the bulky forearm and the capped pistol grip stock with the coarse pointed checkering.

In 16-gauge S-worths the change seems to begin appearing in the 367,4xx range, but barrels seem to be still marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed steel into the low 370,xxx range. The change over in 20-gauge Sterlingworths seems to be spread out from the low 259,xxx to the high 262,xxx range.

So, the competing factors are... Early gun - better workmanship and wood quality, but short chambers and likely poorer stock dimensions. Later gun - better stock dimensions and modern chamber lengths, but poorer workmanship and lower quality wood.

The term "Deluxe" was never used in reference to Sterlingworth guns of the Philadelphia period, just Sterlingworth or Sterlingworth Ejector, brush (26"), field (28"), standard (30") or trap (32"). Beginning in 1930 Savage used the term Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe or Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe-Ejector to indicate a gun equipped with a recoil pad and twin ivory sights. Catalog insert introducing the Deluxe --



These of course were options available on the Sterlingworth from the beginning, but the term Deluxe was purely Savage period term. Also the Deluxe was only cataloged for 28- or 30-inch barrels in 12-gauge and 28-inch barrels in 16- or 20-gauge. The extra cost for a Deluxe was $3, while buying the individual options of a recoil pad was $5 and the twin ivory sights were $1.50 in 1931. By 1940 Deluxe was still $3 extra but the individual options had dropped in price through the years to $3.50 and $1.10.

As to weights, it seems from my experience, you can find guns that fall outside the catalogued weights from most all periods. A 12-gauge 30-inch Sterlingworth was catalogued at 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 pounds in Philly period catalogues and 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 pounds in the Savage period catalogues. I have a Philly gun at 7 pounds 3.2 ounces and a Utica gun at 7 pounds 0.8 ounces, both original butt plates to muzzles.

For upland use, one of the very nicest Sterlingworths is the straight gripped Fox-Sterlingworth Skeet & Upland Game Gun that Savage offered from 1935 to the end of production. 1935 Fox catalog --



1937 magazine ad --



1941 Fox catalog --



You really need to evaluate each gun on its own merits, how it fits you, and meets your needs.

Thank you Researcher...

I looked at one with a capped pistol grip that said Special Alloy Forged Steel.

IMO the least valuable is the last Sterly's made by Fox with the blocky forearm and with the non-capped pistol grip and what I call the pump handle top lever in 26" barrels. That assumes average condition of course. Any mint condition gun is whatever the market is because they just aren't out there. The sweet spot is the ones make after the Savage takeover when they were still using left over Philly parts. The advantage of those particular guns were the fact they in many cases had 2 3/4" chambers and more modern dimensions. Finding a early transition gun for a shooter is probably a good way to go. Price for a 28" length 16 gauge Sterly in average condition IMO is probably a $1,000 proposition.

I have a high condition 1933 vintage 16-gauge A-Grade that has all Philadelphia shaped parts and barrels marked CHROMOX FLUID COMPRESSED STEEL and it has the 2 7/16 inch chambers intended for 2 9/16 inch shells. I also have a high condition 1936 vintage A-Grade 16-gauge that has forearm, top-lever and safety slide in the Savage-style, but still CHROMOX FLUID COMPRESSED STEEL marked barrels and it has 2 3/4 inch chambers. Bottom line a lot of the Savage era guns were short chambered.

The SAAMI meeting where it was suggested that manufacturers mark the chamber length on their guns was in 1937. I've seen some 1938 vintage Fox guns that got this style roll-stamp --



and all guns from 1939 and later. In the 1938 Fox catalogs they begin stating for each gun "Chambered for 2 3/4" shells." We also see this roll-stamp on guns of all eras that were returned to Savage for maintenance. Their policy was to rechamber and reproof the gun to 2 3/4 inch at the owner's risk before any work would be done. If the barrels failed to meet their proof standards they would fit new barrels, destroying the old ones, at cost as a matter of customer good will!!

Similar on my Remington pumps and autoloaders from the 1930s. Those from 1938 and earlier only marked as to gauge. I don't have a 1939 or 40 but those from 1941 onward are marked "For 2 3/4 or shorter shells."

I just ordered a flat of RST 16ga. 2.5 inch shells. $119.oo. Much cheaper to shoot the longer chambered Savage guns.

Others should do as they feel necessary, but I don't sweat the 1/8" difference in my 2 5/8" chambered Foxes. I have shot them with SAAMI loaded 2 3/4" shells for many years and will continue to do so. I just have not seen any reason to pay $119 for shells for them (non-tox excluded). Tests have proven that there is extremely little pressure rise from using shells that are 1/8" long for the chamber. The 2 5/8" chambers were intended for 2 3/4" shells of that day.

Some think that heavy recoil is guaranteed by high pressure, but it is not. Neither is low recoil guaranteed by low pressure. I can load a 7500 psi load that I guarantee will get your attention in a sub 7# gun, and it's no good on the head of the old stock, either.

The old Foxes are much better served by paying attention to the recoil than worrying about the pressures, IMHO.

SRH

The O.P. wrote he was talking Fox 16s most of them made for 2 9/16 shells and with chambers 2 7/16 or even shorter. One of such with very short 2 3/8 chamber has 3/8 lap over if using 2 3/4 shells. The tests often referred to were done using 12 ga and 1/8 lap over but many don't know or dismiss those boundaries and try to apply to Fox 16s and also to 20s sometimes chambered very short like 2 1/4 inch. That fox 12 gauge & 2 5/8 chamber test doesn't fit. All things equal tighten the restriction ahead of a shotgun shell with x pressure and that pressure increases in proportion along with velocity and recoil in that gun.

One never knows what these guns are subjected to in their lives. I have a 20 Gauge Savage Sterly factory chambered in 2 3/4" and had to have it put back on face by Dan Rossiter. Don't know what loads it was subjected to in its life but they must have been pretty hot. I had it restocked as well, so it will now outlast me for sure.

It may well have been off face from many opening & closings with a dry hinge joint. I would think it would take some mighty powerful loads in a 20 gauge to put a Sterly off face.

No idea. I will say that the action flexed big time before Dan put it back on face. Is a Sterlingworth 20 gauge ejector, so it was worth the effort and is now my meat gun.

"IF" that rotary bolt was properly fitted there should be little to No action flex.

In addition to "regular" Fox-Sterlingworths there are Savage-era guns built using up excess flat-sided frame forgings made for the SP-/SPE-Grade guns --

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5786

and also 12-gauge guns made on the drawbolt frame.

That may be but the rotation arc is quite short and hinge joint pressure when opening and closing is low even when compressing ejector springs on a Sterlingworth that has them. Motor engine parts survive millions of high speed cycles with lubrication. Why would off face come from several thousand or less of turtle speed hinge joint movements without some thing else at play? As we say, food for thought.

Re chamber length, pressure, etc:

I saved a copy of a post from this BB going back to 1998. In that post, the author quoted from an article by LTC Calvin Goddard in the May-June 1934 issue of "Army Ordnance". Goddard was quoting from the SAAMI proof tables then in use. Per those tables, there were different proof and service pressure standards for 2 5/8" 12ga vs 2 3/4" 12ga. Mean service working limit for the short shells: 9,500 psi. For 2 3/4" shells: 10,500 psi.

We know from the tests on which Sherman Bell reported in Double Gun Journal that there is a pressure increase when firing 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" chamber vs 2 3/4" chamber. (Average increase of 738 psi, maximum of 1216 psi, from the data he reported.) While there may well be less than that for a gun with 2 5/8" chambers vs 2 3/4", the nominal chamber for the short 20's was 2 1/2", and 2 9/16" for the 16's--where it may be more of an issue. But you're already starting "in the hole" simply because your 2 3/4" shell has a higher SAAMI service pressure than the shorter shells. To which you then must add whatever increase is due to longer shell/shorter chamber. Looks to me like it could be substantial, especially in 20's--and more of an issue in 16's than 12's.

Researcher, I thought the Flat sided SPE's where a product of Savage saving production costs. How many "left over" receivers where there?

The SP-/SPE-Grade was introduced by Savage in their June 12, 1932, Fox wholesale and retail price lists. This magazine ad was a bit optimistic as to price, --



as the price with the non-selective single trigger on the June 12, 1932, price lists was $54.

Early on the SP-/SPE-Grades were perfectly plain and a bit cheaper than the A-/AE-Grades but by the March 1, 1934, price lists they were the same price. Also, in the March 1, 1934, wholesale price list they added a skeet model --



About this time the SP-/SPE-Grades got a bit of line border engraving and some stippling on the top of the breech. For 1935, a fancier skeet gun, the SP-/SPE-Grade Skeet & Upland Game Gun with quite a bit of coarse scroll engraving was introduced --



The SP-/SPE-Grade Skeet & Upland Game Gun remained through Savage's 1939 Fox catalog.

All of the SP-framed Fox-Sterlingworths I know of that have been lettered show ship dates of May 1939 and later.

Did the frame Stretch, or did the hinge pin bend or the steel in the barrel lump compress? Was the rotary bolt Not Fitted so as to help carry the load. How much difference is there in the strength of a 20 ga Fox frame & a 12 Ga one?
All of these factors have to be considered to say it was from Shooting the gun.

In the automobile engine, the parts as stated are constantly Lubricated. Leave the oil out of one & see how far it goes before a total lockup.

I did not positively state this was the cause anyway, only offered it as a "Possibility". You can think that frictional wear is an impossibility in the hinge joint of a double if you choose to, but I seriously doubt you can prove your case.

So was the demand for SP/SPE's so low that Savage produced the Sterlingworth to use them up or to produce guns at a cheaper price without the Birds beak?

I owned one of those very late flat-sided Sterlys. Using up leftover parts as the production of REAL Foxes was winding down. I'd guess the reasoning was that Sterlys were more likely to sell.

I'd guess that SP-/SPE-Grade demand didn't meet expectations and Savage decided to use up some frames for something that might sell. All the Flat-Sided Fox-Sterlingworths that I've seen lettered show shipping dates of May 1939 or later. Likewise the draw-bolt frame Fox-Sterlingworths that I've seen letters on all show shipping dates of 1939 or later. From my years of observations, the flat-sided Fox-Sterlingworths are in four groups, which blows that worthless serial number chronology out of the water -- 30-inch 12-gauge guns in the high 132xxx range, 28-inch guns in the high 137xxx/low 138xxx range, 26-inch 12-gauge guns in the 161xxx range, and 28-inch 16-gauge guns in the 3769xx/3770xx range. The drawbolt frame 12-gauge guns are 30-inch guns in the 133xxx range, mostly 28-inch guns in the 143xxx range and 26-inch guns in the 161xxx range.

Where any of the "Flat sided" made in 20 ga. ?

I stopped by the LGS today...

They had a Savage/Utica made "Fox Sterlingworth" with a capless pistol grip, poly slathered butt/forend with worn checkering, clunker savage top lever, marked 2 3/4", with 28" barrels and in 20 gauge. Bluing 30% and case colors were nill. The store was asking $899.

Oh and I almost forgot, the butt was cut and fitted with a red rubber pad with a LOP of 13.5". Lock up was tight. I know the 20s command a higher price, but is that good, bad or ugly?

If you can't live with the stock it is a no brainer for me. Stocks are very expensive to replace on low end guns.

That�s a good gun for a project if the metal is pit free and the barrels still have good chokes. There is a lot you could do with it to make it your small bore go to gun.

In October 1938, my friend Henry of Federal Oak Farm, Charles County, Maryland, was given just such a gun new for his 21st birthday. Fifty-nine years later, and after visiting every barbed wire fence and thorny growth from Southern Maryland to the New York border, Henry passed it on to me.



For the next six seasons I shot quite a few Doves with it. When I was leaving the area I decided the old 20-gauge Fox-Sterlingworth should stay in Southern Maryland and passed it on to another young bird hunting member of our gun club. A few years later he sent me a picture of it with grouse he'd shot with it up in New York.

Thanks guys...

I think I'm going to stay on the hunt for a 16.

Yep, project 20 gauge would be a good choice for that gun if the barrels are sound. That's probably the least desirable 20 gauge sterly out there unless it was the exact same gun but with 26" barrels..

To date none have crossed my path.

quite a few 20 and 16 Gauge foxes have come my way this year...

what is disturbing is that around half have cracked stocks...

mostly phillie guns...

makes the case for opening the chambers and lengthening the forcing cones?

and fortunately rst is back in business...

Had a 16ga Sterlingworth stolen many years ago. Was my favorite grouse gun. Serial 369130

Eddie k, will keep an eye out for your gun...

others, pls do likewise...

Thanks Ed